I got a great email the other day:
“One solar installer has told me that it is best for the inverter to be as close as possible to the panels and NOT to the meter box as your checklist indicates. Is he crazy?”
Short answer. Yes – he’s crazy.
Longer answer:
As close as possible to the panels? Whatcha gonna do put it on the roof?
I get a lot of stick for this advice in one of my solar installation videos:
Sometimes I get heat for recommending that you put your solar inverter as close to your fusebox as possible.
The argument against this advice is basically that the voltage drop is proportional to the length of the wire and that the voltage drop between the panels and the inverter is (allegedly) more critical than the voltage drop between the inverter and the meter. Therefore you should minimise the length of wire from the panels to the inverter at the expense of the length of wire from the inverter to the grid/meter.
I’m not sure where this argument comes from. The truth is that the voltage drop that will cause the most problems is on the 240V AC side.
If you want to be sure that your solar system will operate reliably, then the voltage drop between the inverter and your grid connection needs to be less than 1%.
Why? Here I’ll quote from a Grid Connect PV manual by GSES:
“Although not mentioned in AS/NZS 5033:2012, AC voltage drop/rise [i.e. between the inverter and the switchboard] should be kept as low as possible. The purpose of this is to keep the voltage rise to a minimum – this is to prevent voltage rise in the local grid. High levels of voltage in sections of the grid may lead to overvoltage tripping in grid connected inverters. The allowable voltage rise depends upon the local state rules that are in effect. However, under the CEC Guidelines which were effective as of the 1st of February, 2013, the new recommended AC voltage drop/rise from the inverter to the point of connection is 1%.”
Of course the best way to minimise voltage drops in your solar system – which will maximise your power output and maximise the return on investment – is to use cables that are as short and as thick as practicably possible. The thicker the cable, the lower the voltage drop across the cable. So if you absolutely need a long run of cable – you can usually compensate with thicker wire.
Typical wire thickness (measured in cross sectional area – millimetres squared) for the DC cables that run from the panels to the inverter is 1.5mm², 2.5mm², 4mm², and 6mm². If you want to minimise losses insist on at least 4mm². Believe me some of the large and super cheap solar installation companies want to save every last cent on every install and will try to get away with the 1.5mm² wire!
As for the AC cable, i.e. from the inverter to the meter, don’t go smaller than 6mm². And if you have to place your inverter more than a few metres from the meter then go thick enough to keep the losses in that wire less than 1%.
My advice is to stipulate to your installer (in writing) that the losses in the wires (voltage drops) should be less that 2% overall for the system as a whole. After all electricity is expensive and wire is cheap!
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Your response seems very logical. How about the argument that the high voltage DC last lines are a greater fire risk than AC lines? If that were true, it would argue for placing inverter closer to solar panels to more more minimize the length of DC wire run.
You may explain that rationale from the fact that low to medium voltage dc has high losses over medium to long distances and ac is preferable (consistant with flow of electron vs. forward and back movement)
Hi
I’m getting a shed roof solar array which will be about 70 m from the power board and the grid connection. I’m getting conflicting advice about where the inverter and battery should go? That is, should I run long DC cable from the solar panels and place the inverter and battery adjacent to the power board, and AC into the grid on a very short cable? Or should I put the inverters and battery in the shed and run AC to the grid and house?
High voltage DC is better for losses on long runs.
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/shed-solar-distance/
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/solar-voltage-rise-drop/
Hi Finn
I have a test report from Photon, in PDF, of a Samil Power’s SolarLake 15000TL, 3 phase, if you are interested. You have my email & if you would like it let me know.
Your argument makes sense for a grid tied set up, but what about an off grid array with the PVs pushing out only 24V to a battery bank and then the inverter taking its feed from there?
I disagree with their argument at least to some degree.
If you are using a battery bank, which in turn runs through a DC to AC power inverter, it is better to keep the charge controller/batteries and inverter as close to the solar panels as is possible. (Typically within 20 feet or so). DC voltage drop is far more extreme than is AC voltage drop. You want to capture as much DC voltage from the panels as you can to charge the batteries. The cables from the Batteries to the Inverter must be as short as possible and heavy enough. From the inverter to what you are running could be much greater distances with much lower loss. That is why we use AC power from the power plant to your house as opposed to DC power.
Normally, if you have a 20 amp AC circuit in a house it should be 12 gauge. At 100 feet you would want to jump up to 10 gauge to account for voltage drop. If you take a DC voltage at 20 volts at 20 amps 12-10 gauge is plenty at close range. At 100 feet you would need 4 gauge minimum but more like 2 gauge to account for voltage drop to be less than 3%.
I realize your post is a long time ago, but I do have a degree in electronics, and I am searching for the answer of how heavy is heavy enough to have the solar panels 100 feet from the charge controller, which would enable me to have the battery bank in the basement. In other words, how much loss is acceptable and still get the job done.
I hope this helps
I’m getting different STC amounts on quotes for a 3kw system in Torquay Vic. Do these vary day to day?
yes they do vary day to day just like share prices – you can see a chart of how they vary on a weekly basis here:
http://www.greenmarkets.com.au/market.html
and the STCs are explained here:
http://solarquotes.com.au/solar-credits-explained.html
I’m wanting to place solar panels on my shed then run a cable to my second shed about 5 meters away where I can place a supp box, then run another cable 100 meters to the house where the meter box is and supposedly where I’ll place my inverter. My question is how thick should my cable be to have a successful installation? Can I run one long cable from panels to house ? With the inverter right next to the meter box or should I go to my second shed first where I was told should be placed a meter box?
Your CEC accredited designer can work that out in about 5 minutes. I’m not going to give you a cable size without all the details because it is a very important number to get right!
Hello Finn,
My Main Meter box located on the Far (west) wall of my shed, making it about 8-9 meters from the house west wall. There is a fuse box located inside on the West wall of the House.
Would it be practical to locate the Inverter (SMA 5kw) inside the House next to and Conect via the Fuse Box … Is this an acceptable mounting and Connection option ?
Or … should the inverter be loacted on the Shed with cabling back to the house and the Panels on the roof ?
The most important thing is that it is in a cool place. In a garage is ideal. Or a shaded external wall.
If you have to run a longish cable to the meter, then ask the installer to tell you the voltage drop and don’t accept > 1%.
I wouldn’t put it inside the house. They are big and ugly!
Hi Finn, I have been told conflicting facts from different installers regards location of where I should place my Solax hybrid inverter and battery storage unit. Options are 5kWh panels:
1)on house tile roof with 5kWh inverter (not so ugly in a laundry) and 4kWh batteries in laundry 5m from panels but at opposite end of house 15m from metre box;
2) inverter beside metre box under carport 5m from panels and batteries in garden shed 5m across driveway with cables following roof beams of carport;
3) panels on garage tin roof with inverter and batteries in garage 30 metres from mains metre box. Garage has a fuse box/sub-board but wiring too narrow for system so new trench from sub board to mains under concrete driveway required.
In your expert opinion which is best option?From what I have been reading in your website option 2 seems the best for reduction of voltage drop. But installer assures me 6mm cable from laundry addresses that issue but insists inverter and batteries must be beside each other, not across laundry (or carport) from each other. Doesn’t the larger cable between these items address the voltage drop issue too? Is it a CEC standard that the batteries and inverter cannot be more than a metre apart? I could not find any specifics on this matter. Your advise would be appreciated.
Hard to say without an inspection. I’m not aware of a hard rule that says your battery to inverter cable can’t be more than 1m. Perhaps ask him which standard/guideline says that. I’d be really interested to know.
These would be my priorities in order of importnance
1) Batteries and inverter in a cool, shaded area with ventilation.
2) Short as possible distance between batteries and inverter.
3) Short as possible distance between inverter and grid meter.
And yes – generally a thicker wire can make up for longer runs – but it should be carefully calculated to keep all voltage drops less than 3%, ideally less than 1% if practical. After all wire is cheap compared to panels and batteries!
Hi Finn,
Proposed battery location at my place will be in garage (to keep rainwater off) but will be 15 metres from the inverter. Is this going to be a real problem with power loss, and what dia. cable should I insist on?
Hi Finn
My question is how can you tell if the 240 watt solar panel is a 12V or 24v?
Thanks,
I appreciate it,
Abdul Yahia
Look at the sticker on the back of the panel. There will be a number “Rated Voltage”. THis is the panel voltage.
Does anyone know if there is a minimum distance the inverter must be from our meter box? Our installer has placed it 3 metres away from the meter box while there is space for it to go right next to it
3m should not cause any issues. Although if there was space next to the meter box, I don’t understand why your installer would not put it there, as the shorter the distance, the lower the voltage drop, and the lower the losses. But we are talking a tiny loss over 3m (assuming ice thick wire is used).
We have 2 runs of 25mm cable two phase 177metres from two digital meters on the pole just inside the front gate to two 3kW inverters to keep the voltage rise below 2%. Hopefully we will get 7.8kW less losses out of the system. I write this to emphasise short cable runs are a blessing.
Hi Brian, Ronald here.
I don’t know the details of the system but, fingers crossed, that should keep voltage rise to under 1%.
And yes, short cable runs are definitely a blessing.
Hi Finn,
We have our 3kw panels installed on the eastern face of our shed, as it was the only place at the time, we now have a place we can install them facing north but they will be 25m from the inverter, my question is: would it be best to leave them where they are and accept the lower power generation (east) or move them and have the voltage drop over the 25m?
The losses from a longer cable, properly sized will be a fraction of a percent, the reduction in energy from facing east will be about 20%.
But…
It will be expensive to relocate.
And…
If you use power later in the day and are on a non-premium feed in tariff then you may save more money by having east facing panels, as they will generate more energy later in the day, increasing self consumption.
If you have a 2nd input on your inverter, I’d consider adding a second string on the North, oversizing your inverter up to 133%.
Or if you do not have a 2nd input, panels with micro inverters on the North may be a good idea. The current rebate will pay for most of the panel cost (but not the installation or inverter costs).
Hope That Helps,
Finn
did you say east facing panels generate more power later in the day ?
doesn’t the sun set in the west ?
wouldn’t west facing panels generate more power later in the day and east more in the morning ?
Hi Rod, Ronald here.
I can’t see where Finn wrote that, but if he did it’s clearly just a silly mistake. East facing panels will generate more in the morning and west facing ones more in the afternoon.
Hey guys,
I have a problem with a hybrid solax 5kw inverter.
String one keeps dropping out, I swapped the two strings and string one keeps dropping out,
Any ideas ?
Cheers
I’m looking at getting solar, however my meter box is on a power pole about 30m from the house. Meter is an i-Credit 400 (will this do Net?). I’m on a farm and there is 3 meters in the box (2 for the sheds and one for the house). The house has the actual fuse box, with a cable running through the air from the pole to the house.
We get a voltage drop when numerous high drain appliances are running, eg dryer, 3 AC units, kettle etc that pulls the voltage down to as low as 210V.
I’m guessing the “house” meter would need to be moved to the house itself, otherwise a new second cable will need to be run to the pole to account for the unused solar generation? I’d prefer not to have the inverter out in the elements on the power pole, given that it likely needs to be replaced by Ausgrid soon too. I also want to be able to gather stats from it for PVOutput etc. Sounds like voltage drop issues would make placing the inverter on the power pole unavoidable?
A minimum level of 210 volts should still be above a solar inverter’s minimum voltage cut-off, so you should be right in that respect.
Thanks Ronald, would I still need to run a separate cable from the inverter (bolted to the house) to the meter (bolted to a pole 30m from the house) so that unused solar generation is accounted for?
You will have an export/import meter installed that will keep track of electricity you send into the grid.
According to the Clean Energy Council’s installer guidelines, “The inverter shall be connected by fixed wiring to a dedicated circuit on a switchboard.” So that would be a separate cable.
The switchboard (and inverter) will be 30m+ away from the meter, but the inverter and switchboard will be next to each other. The meter just records the net amount of power going in and out, maybe an additional aerial (or buried) cable is not needed then? Would save a stack of cash…
I’m clear on what you are asking now. The inverter will be connected to the switchboard by a (short) cable and there won’t need to be an additional connection to the meter.
Perfect, thanks for the replies Ronald 🙂
All installed and working well 🙂 When the sun is up the house voltage actually improves too, which the coffee machine likes!
We only have a 6mm core cable from the pole to the house 🙁
Can you please help with some advice. WE have a Afore Anyhome 5kw with 20 panels. the inverted was installed within 40cm from fuse box and is in direct sun light from midday on. our first inverted lasted 7 month and was replaced under warranted. at the time of installation I question the inverted being in direct sunlight and was assured its not a problem there is heaps like it. two years and seven months from the warranted inverted being installed our system is on producing half the amount of power which would be consider normal going on what its made in the past taking all variables into consideration. our System supplier tell us the reason is the slight shading ( palm frond 20 feet away) 10-15% of 1 panel but even when there is no shading.
Reading at 10:30am 1pv=306a, vpv=281v, iac=4.2a, vac=246v and power reading was 1090w with no shading on panels at all.
Hello Darryl. Generally I would expect 5 kilowatts of unshaded panels to be producing considerably more than 1,090 watts at 10:30 in the morning. I would check on several sunny days when the sky is clear and the sun is directly over the panels. If they aren’t producing at least close to 4 kilowatts on one of those days I’d say you have a good reason to be cranky.
Just a very small amount of shade, even on just one panel, can have a major effect of the output of the entire system, but not when there is no shade. It is possible that there is dirt on the panels, for example bird poop, that is causing a large reduction in output. If you can visually inspect your panels you can rule this out.
If the problem is dirt, it should improve after heavy rain, as this is often enough to clean them.
Unfortunately, another possibility is the panels have deteriorated. This normally doesn’t happen over such a short period of time with tier one brands, but I don’t know what kind of panels you have. Again, if you can visually inspect them and can see any imperfections such as brown spots or what look like snail trails, then one or more of your panels may be failing and dragging down the performance of the whole system.
There could be a problem with the inverter, but they are usually an all or nothing deal and when they fail tend to stop working entirely.
Your installer’s attitude to the inverter being in full sun is a bit lax. If might be okay for him if they normally last till the end of their warranty, but if you want to extend the life of your inverter it would probably be a good idea to put a shade above it.
Thank you for your very helpful reply. I took a reading at 2.00pm (Daylight savings)18/03
1pv 6.2A, Vpv 252w,1ac 6.5a , Vac 243w Power Reading 1515w .
This morning 19/03 I wash all my panels again to remove some bird poo/splatter, reading at 2.00pm Ipv 8.1a, vpv 224v ,Iac 7.7a Vac 242v, power reading 1768w. both days reading with out shadow to be found with same temp. an improvement but still approx 1/2 of what would be normal. had a really good inspection of all panels and cant find any imperfection what so ever. the panels are north facing 20x250w Schutten .I had my own very well vented cover made up for our inverter last summer but you still very hot to touch and would more than likely burn a child’s hand.
Would you be able to recommend a Electrician with Solar System skills here in Adelaide SA who is not part of Solar and Wind Wingfield that I could contact for an independent inspections .
solarservicingsa.com.au are great guys – ask for Sasha
Greetings Finn, I was advised to contact National Renewable Group (NRG) South Australia, who came to our house and carried out a Compliance Check on our system.
From NRG Report :OUTCOME
One of the strings is open circuit, meaning that the system is only producing half of what it should. There are several other
issues with the installation: the inverter has been installed on a western wall exposed to sun, the array has not been earthed
properly, the dektites have not been sealed with silicone and the overhang on the panels is too great.
COMMENTS
One of the strings is not in operation. We have checked both the inverter and rooftop isolators to rule them out as the cause.
There is no voltage at the panel side of the rooftop isolator. The bottom row of panels will need to be taken apart in order to
find the cause of the fault.
When I supplied this report to Solar Wind they sent out an interdependent, Nigel Griffin (GRIFFIN RENEWABLE ENERGY) who removed panel from lower string until he found a panel that had melted down part of the circuit board on the back. Still waiting on Olympic Solar/Solar Winds, Winfield .
My solar panels keep tripping on high voltage..262 v ac.. when at full output…approx 4000 watts
The problem appears to be that the load on my house ls low…I can stop the rise by artificially loading the board with appliances…this is a waste…what can I do..?
Hello Colin. Sorry to hear about your inverter tripping out.
When your inverter is at full output and the loads are low in your home, the inverter has to push the voltage higher to get the power into the grid. If it has to go too high the inverter will exceed the allowable limit and cut out. There are a couple of main things that could be causing this.
It is possible your system could have an unusually large voltage rise. A significant voltage rise is more likely to occur if there is a long distance from your solar inverter to your grid connection. Using larger diameter cables can resolve this problem — but the cables should already by of suitable diameter for the distances involved. Still, it is possible your cables are too narrow for the job.
Another possibility is that the grid voltage in your area is often high during the day. Informing your Distributed Network Service Provider (DNSP) of the problem may result in them fixing the problem. (Your DNSP should be on your bill.)
I am possibly going solar but getting conflicting info. Solar companies want to make a sale but can’t give precise answers to some questions. My average bill is $360 per quarter and some say “do nothing”. Others want to sell me a system. 3 kwh system recommended by most agents.
What is the most efficient position . Garage is separate from house 10.0m away with meter box only on front wall. House is 10m behind (and separated) with sub board in laundry. Collectors are on house roof facing north. Conflicting info is Inverter inside garage above meter box which gives a distance of approx 20m of run to sub board in laundry. Does this create problems with voltage drop/efficiency of the system. Collectors would be directly above the sub board. Would a new underground feed be required between garage and house (Established gardens etc to navigate)
Hi Ron,
What postcode are you in? That will let me know what Feed In Rate you can get and that can make a difference to my advice re: what size system / is it worth it.
I wouldn’t want to give you advice on where to put the panels or inverter without seeing your site.
Finn
What danger is there from the DC wiring and is there any benefit to keeping it high and out of child reach? It will be covered by conduit so I’m thinking it probably doesn’t matter. Just wanted to check as it seems the most shaded location for our inverter could be under a deck (two storey house), so the DC cable would run down from the roof past the level of the deck where people can reach it.
DC cabling should be less of a hazard than AC extension cords and appliance power cords in your house, but while DC is generally regards as less dangerous than AC damaged DC cables do have a greater risk of arcing which has the potential to start fires.
This article goes into solar system safety and shows a video of a DC arc:
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0ahUKEwi27bz479jVAhXHx7wKHUL6BqoQFggxMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.solarquotes.com.au%2Fblog%2Fsolar-panel-maintenance-often-inspected%2F&usg=AFQjCNG_0RheS8pCmbz9kLgLUuNuK9diSQ
Its as hazardous as the current and over current protection you have on the circuits – 12vdc at high amps across your heart can kill you or start a fire … I run commercial systems as high as 1000 VDC with high current that will hurt people and things if you get it wrong – so – find an appropriate standard for installation and use that as a guideline – New Zealand and Australia have very detailed guidleines for installation in ASNZS 5033:2014 – you may want find out what standard or code of practice your country uses. Dont think DC safe AC dangerous – think AMPHERES
Hi Finn.
We have been doing the rounds with our solar installer for 6 months and the system is still tripping out.
Our installer put in an 8.7 kW system on a single phase solaredge SE7300 inverter. It was connected in series with an much older 2 kW system. Never worked properly.
I then had a 3 phase net meter put in to get full use of the 3 phase power to the board which was set up and always used as a single phase installation. The we put the old 2 kW system and the new 8.7 kw system on different phases. No change!
I am now wondering if a 3 phase inverter is going to solve the over voltage issue. Are you aware if this would drop the voltage rise by about 3V or not as this is what we would need to be out of trouble?
Of course the installer who failed to do a site check or any calculations is kicking and screaming it is not his fault as he does not want to bear the cost of fixing his mess.
I suspect we need regulations to be upgraded so that consumers are not left high and dry by this issue…..which is from what I understand a significant issue for many of us trying to do the right thing by generating clean energy.
Any help greatly appreciated. Thanks for your help and useful articles.
A three phase inverter will reduce voltage rise significantly. A good installer should be able to take the relevant measurements…
( https://support.solarquotes.com.au/hc/en-us/articles/115001759153-My-Inverter-Keeps-Tripping-or-Reducing-Power-On-Over-voltage-What-can-I-do- )
…and then calculate if the three phase inverter will fix the issue. I’d be confident that it will fix the issue – but need to do the measurements to be sure.
I want to relocate my solar panels to a position that actually receives maximum sunlight. At present they only receive light for a few hours a day. However, when relocated they will be 100 meters from the inverter. I am intending to install batteries between the solar panel and the inverter. This way I can use my power generated during the day and night and still have some to send to the grid. What size cabling would be best and is it possible.
Hi Owen
That is feasible, but unusual. Your installer would have to do the calculations and work out the cabling required for your particular system. If you have a 3 phase inverter it may be easier to move that closer to the panels and use AC cabling. Note with DC current you’ll need a circuit and most solar systems have 2 strings of panels, so with 2 strings you’ll need 4 times the length of cabling as with an AC connection.
The cabling for most battery systems is very thick and so they need to be located close to the inverter.
It is possible you would be better off installing more panels in a poor location than putting a smaller number in an optimal location.
HI, I am designing a 27KW (70- 395W lgs ) with 2 solar edge string inverter(11.4 kw). ground mount.
The closest 400 amp electrical service is 500 feet away … or i could connect directly to a utility pole which is also 500 feet away .
My main concern is should i put the inverters closer to the PV array or the electrical service/utility pole ?
if i put the inverter close to the array, voltage drop gets high, and if i keep it close to the electrical service/utility pole we have 500 feet of dc running. i dont know which is better.
would appreciate some insights.
Generally it is easier to keep the solar inverter close to the solar panels and have a longer length of AC cable to the grid connection. But 500 feet is around 160 meters so with 3 phase power and a 20 kilowatt inverter the cable from the inverter to the grid connection would need a cross section of about 50 square millimeters to keep voltage rise to under 1%. It may be easier to locate the panels closer to the grid connection. Your installer will be able to advise you on your options.
Wait a minute — Let me use my internet spy powers on you… Are you in Canada? The North American grid is different from ours and I don’t know how that will affect things.
Hi Finn,
Im just in the planning stages for installing a sub-board in my shed. Eventually I will be getting Solar installed onto the shed as its perfectly positioned. The run between the shed and the main switchboard is 45m. Do you recommend the inverter mounted at the main switchboard,or Inside the shed and separate 240V cables into the Main Switchboard or can it be connected via the sub-board in the shed if the wiring is large enough for minimal Vd? Just trying to understand which will be cheaper and to know the electrician has the right idea as well. A battery bank behind the shed is an option too if they become cheaper in the future.
Thanks alot, Kyle.
Hello Kyle, Ronald here.
Normally the inverter should be placed close to the solar panels. But if there is a distance of 45 meters to your grid connection you may have a problem depending on what type of solar system you intend to install on your shed.
With a 5 kilowatt single phase inverter you will need AC cable from your grid connection where your meter is to the inverter at your shed to be at leave 25 square millimeters in cross section. With a smaller inverter the cable won’t need to be so thick.
If you have 3 phase power then you can install a 3 phase inverter. A 5 kilowatt 3 phase solar inverter will only need AC cable with a 6 square mm cross section for 45m distance. A 10 kilowatt 3 phase inverter will need 10 a cross section of 10 square mm.
You should be able to download the Clean Energy Council Install And Supervise Guidelines here:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=2ahUKEwjH25bR6IzdAhWbd94KHZBiBYEQFjABegQIBxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.solaraccreditation.com.au%2Fdam%2Fsolar-accred%2Finstallers%2Fbecoming-accredited%2Finstall-guidelines%2Finstall-guidelines-1-may-2017.pdf&usg=AOvVaw1kf6nRA7evLm0x75VDTewC
And on page 25 there is a table showing maximum cable lengths.
Anyone familiar with Solar River inverters? I have a 5000TL that suddenly kicked up a “DC reverse” alarm #15, which my manual says is a fan fault…..I changed the fan, still getting it.It won’t allow the AC to run, it says dc reverse, then goes to “no utility” even tho’ the menu shows 240v. Anyone have a clue? It’s still under warranty, but Samil seems to be ignoring all warranty work, so I’m desperately hoping to avoid a new inverter.
thanks
Don
I don’t know anything about the inverter but you may want to contact a consumer affairs organization in your state to get Samil to either repair it or replace it. If they are not doing anything they are clearly in the wrong.
I want to install a 6.6kw solar system with a 5kw inverter . I have a 10mm 3phase cable underground hooked to a 3 phase import /export meter. solar panels and inverter will be installed at a shed 150m away from import/export meter and the meter is 30m from pole on the street connected with16mm 3 phase cable. Is it possible
Hi Sam.
I’m afraid for a 5 kilowatt 3 phase inverter the maximum distance that can be covered with 10 square mm cross section 3 phase cable is 143m. To keep voltage rise within the acceptable 1% limit the cable would need to be replaced with one with 16 square mm cross section which will allow a distance of 227m. Because of the high cost of replacing the cable you may want to consider installing solar on ground mounts closer to your import/export meter.
Problem, NEDAP Power Router 5 KW inverter at house and transformer about 500 Metres away. I-credit 500 meter at pole and transformer where a bore pump also runs from. Before solar installed in 2014 there was a meter in the box at the house where the inverter connects to the grid but was removed and the only meter is the one on the pole all that distance away. Since 2014 only about 5,000 KW is shown as exported to the grid and the LED on the inverter shows a”soft grid error” all the time. Since installation it appears the system hasn’t worked properly. An engineer friend tells me the distance between the inverter connection at the box at the house and the transformer/meter pole is most likely the problem. It appears to me the solar installers removed the old meter at the house and should have replaced it with a new Net type but just relied on the one at the distant transformer pole which was there originally to meter the bore. My engineer friend advises that there should be a meter where the original was in the box at the house next to the inverter.
NEDAP have gone belly up and the original installer wants nothing to do with it.
HELP please with any suggestions.
Hello Peter
According to the Australian Standard AS4777.1 a solar installer must ensure there is no more that a 2% voltage rise from the inverter to the point of supply. If your point of supply to the grid is 500m away then it is not plausible that the voltage rise would be 2% or less. If this is the case, your installer would not have followed the Australian Standard when installing your system as they are required to do. I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is they should not have gone ahead with your solar installation and — provided my interpretation of what has happened is correct — they are required to provide a remedy. I suggest contacting consumer affairs and getting advice on how to proceed.
Hi Finn and Ronald,
I’m getting a 6.6kW system with a 5kW inverter installed on my house which was built in the 1970’s. My preference would be for the inverter to be mounted in the garage rather than next to the power box which would result in an extra 11m of cabling each way to and from the inverter (i.e. 11m DC in and 11 AC out). My installers have said that the extra distance may cause some issues with voltage because the mains wiring of the power box has smaller wires than what would be used in modern day houses.
I would have thought that provided the wires used are thick enough going into the power box, it would not make a difference. What are your thoughts?
Hi Nicolas
Even if heavy duty copper cable with a 25 mm cross section is used from the inverter to the switchboard, over 11m it can still result in a modest voltage rise. It is possible this could be enough to cause a voltage rise issue when combined with old wiring your home has. You will also lose a little energy on the DC side and need to pay for extra cabling. Note the DC side will require two extra lengths of cable.
You could ask the installer if the voltage rise would be acceptable if heavy duty cabling was used and get a quote for the system with that extra cost. Then you can decide if it is worthwhile.
Here’s an interesting question which I can’t find an answer to, perhaps you can help?
Person with lots of computers that are on 24×7 and uses around 100kWh of energy in a 24hr period, has a separate board for the computers which is on the end of 35m of 10mm2 cable protected by a 40Amp fuse.
The board supplies a dedicated set of outlets some 40m away each with 6mm2 cable per outlet.
They have indicated they are not concerned with feed in to the grid but want to reduce the load drawn from the grid. They have an East/West facing roof of considerable size and have requested 2 inverters (3kw) and two sets of panels.. one for east one for west (single MPPT) and for the inverters to be placed at the second board and not the incoming board. Voltage drop on the second board (recorded) is less than 1%.. everything in my training says the inverters should go near the incoming line and not the load. They are insisting that putting the inverters on the midpoint will be fine and want to do so because it is a protected location and it will accommodate the batteries they want to install… I can’t see anything wrong with it, except for the possibility of unintentional voltage rise, but that should be compensated by the load drawing the majority if not all of the power…
A little guidance here would be appreciated…
I’d put the inverter where they are asking in that situation
Thank you Finn.
I have an existing 5kW system with 15 panels and a 6kW solar edge inverter which is working fine; however having now got an EV I would like to increase the output by adding 5-6 panels. The garage roof appears ideal as it is N facing, whereas the main house roof is multi faceted with few options for additional panels (unless they are triangular). However it would involve a c 40m cable run to the inverter and meter. The original installer (sourced through SolarQuotes) is reluctant to explore the garage option, suggesting that the cable run is too difficult/expensive. As it happens the gas company is about to lay a new gas main between the garage and the house. My question is whether I could simply put a conduit in the trench (on my land) which could subsequently be used for the DC run to the inverter. Are there rules about services separation I should be aware of, and is there any advice as to the size of conduit and cable needed to accommodate the cable needed for a 40m run?
Supplying them with a suitable empty conduit and asking them to place it in the trench is not an unreasonable request. I’m not aware of any reason why that couldn’t be done but they may still refuse because it differs from their standard procedure. It’s possible there are regulations that prohibit it but they may vary depending on the state.
I will mention that adding solar panels to an existing system is often not cost effective and that long distance will add to the difficulty and expense, as well as increasing wiring losses. You may want to consider if you would be better off investing in other energy efficiency measures such as replacing a conventional hot water system with a heat pump one. You could also be better off installing a second separate solar system. This could go on the garage roof, but you could also investigate placing on the south facing section of your home roof. While south facing panels may only produce three quarters are much energy as north facing ones, if it allows for a larger installation it may be worthwhile.
Graham,
You state:
“As it happens the gas company is about to lay a new gas main between the garage and the house.”
Do you have your terminology correct? New “gas main” implies to me that it serves more than one customer – presumably more than your property? Why would “the gas company … lay a new gas main” just between your garage and house, unless there’s an easement there on your property, and the “gas main” is intended to be extended beyond your property to serve other properties/consumers?
What I’m getting at is, if the “new gas main” is just for your own purposes I’d suggest you rethink doing so.
Tim Forcey, a researcher at Melbourne University, told the Independent Planning Commission NSW (IPCN) conducting public hearings concerning the proposed Narrabri CSG Project on Jul 23 (transcript page 57, lines 18-36):
“…some Victorians aren’t freezing; nor are they running up big gas bills. How can this be? Because the basics in their homes – draft proofing, insulation, window coverings – have been attended to. This is called energy efficiency. And these Victorians aren’t using any gas in their homes at all. So how do we stay warm? We know a secret. We found the heat button on our reverse cycle air conditioners and we worked out, as we reported at Melbourne Uni and as have others since, that heat pumps can be a far cheaper way to heat than burning expensive fossil gas. Here in my home, we heat with reverse cycle air cons for a third of the cost of ducted gas.
At Melbourne Uni, we calculated that Victorians and others could save hundreds of millions of dollars each winter, simply by pushing the heat button on their air conditioner. And, since then, we’ve been spreading the word about this economic opportunity, and we now have more than 17,000 members at the Facebook Group, My Efficient Electric Home. People are switching off gas, having their gas metres pulled out of the ground, to be replaced by a shrubbery. Now, even AGL are telling their customers they would be better off having no gas in their homes. These days, entire suburbs are being planned without any connection to a gas grid, because that’s a smart and economic thing to do. …”
See: https://www.ipcn.nsw.gov.au/resources/pac/media/files/pac/projects/2020/03/narrabri-gas-project/public-hearing/transcripts/200723_day-4_narrabri-gas-project-public-hearing.pdf
Something to ponder.
Thanks Geoff. Yes my terminology was a bit sloppy, the gas co is installing (at their cost) a new main down my shared driveway serving several houses, and will install a buried gas pipe past my garage to the house, replacing an old line (and main) which is corroded and leaking. We use r/c a/c for space heating, as you suggest, but gas for cooking and water heating. Currently the existing solar peaks out around 3kW in winter and 4kW in summer, averaging about 19kWh per day so doesn’t provide enough to run the house and charge the car
Hi Solar Quotes
I am installing a 6.6KW System with 17 x Jinko Tiger 390 N type panels and 5KW Fronius Inverter.
The inverter will be installed in an area which will have full shade after 10 AM.
The distance from panels to inverter will be 20 meters max
and the distance from inverter to meter box will be 2 meters max.
My installer is supplying 6 mm cable for both connections.
PV array to Inverter and Inverter to Meter Box
Is this right ?
Is a thicker cable always good ?
Are there any disadvantages of using a thicker cable than recommend 4mm cable ?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Hi Chris
The installer is required to keep the voltage drop from the most distant solar panel to the inverter to under 3% and provided the cable does this — which it definitely should — then it meets the standard. The voltage rise between the inverter and the meter box should be kept to under 1% and over a 2m distance this won’t be a problem.
Thicker cable is better as it will cut wiring losses by a small amount, but costs more for a trivial benefit. If the goal is to increase solar output the best way to spend money is usually to install a larger system but export limit it to the the 5 kilowatts most homes are permitted to export.
Hi I’m about to install 5kw worth on enphase microinverters. I have three phase and want to install all 5kw on one phase, leaving two other phases ready for more panels when I have the money because there is plenty more room.
Are 3x 2.5mm cables from the roof to meter box 2 storeys below thick enough? That’s what’s there and my installer says yes but given this is the last chance to change I’d be very appreciative if someone could confirm. Many thanks.
Hello Brendan
Cables that are only 2.5mm in diameter are extremely thin. I strongly suspect they are actually 25mm or 2.5cm. If that is the case, then they are thick enough. If they are 2.5mm thick, I would be very concerned.
Yeah, can’t be 2.5mm that wouldn’t handle the full power generated without significant loss. 4mm would be the absolute minimum (as a patch more than anything) and I’d expect to see 6mm or 10mm for each 5kw string to the board.. depending on the distance, type of cable, and installation type (conduit etc).
If it’s a 5kw single string and they put 2.5mm leader into it I’d be seriously questioning the qualifications of the installer. Max rating of 2.5mm single conductor cable at 60C (like in roof void in summer) is just 17amps. 5kw at 250v (which is max voltage) is 20amps.. at nominal of 230v it’s 22amps (ish).. 4mm is rated to 22amps @ 60C.
Thanks so much. The wire that’s been pushed through the roof has 2.5mmsquared x4c+e written on it.
Again, really appreciate the help. It’s a new build and the wire runs inside but there is still time to change it.
Yeah, personally, I’d be using 6mm minimum, 16mm ideal, 10mm compromise between cost and benefit. (Assuming no conduit) and wire length of 10m from panels to the board. 6mm into each panel minimum (if single string from one end to the other) 4mm if the string is connected in the middle to the leader.
Actually I think the installer is correct as in fact he plans for each ~5kw worth of microinverters to be split over three phases.
13panels x 1.26a (max) per panel = 16.4 amps. Divided over three actives =5.5a per active wire.
Later on triple the system size to 39 panels=16.4a per active wire.
I’m thinking he’s actually come up with a good design for future expansion?
Hello again, Brendan. The installer on site will have a far better idea of the site conditions and what can be done, so it is possible I’m not understanding the situation. While 2.5mm diameter cable would be too small for 5 kilowatts of solar, Enphase microinverters will have cables run to a combiner box, so the narrow gauge wires may not be used and that may be why you’ve been told they’re not a problem. Without understanding the situation better, I can’t say if there is an issue or not.
Hi All,
I am just going through solar quotes at the moment to get a quote on solar, battery and EV Charger. The issue is that our meter/ switchboard to our proposed battery is about 15m.
One contractor has said yes they can do it including the extra ducting in the ceiling and longer cables.They also said that there wouldn’t be any issues with voltage drop
Another contractor said it is not possible because of the additional data cables and relays required and the limit to the length of cables is 5-6m.
We need the battery if we get solar because no one is home during the day time. So solar without the battery would only be useful for us on weekends.
Could I please get some advice from the experts.
Cheers
Hi Van,
It can be impractical to run really large cables and then have isolators, blue points or other connectors to break them down into manageable sizes at each end, however I wouldn’t think 15 metres is too far. Bear in mind 15 metres across the floor can be 20 metres by the time you’ve gone up and down walls. If it’s a series connected hybrid with essential circuits running -through- the inverter then that might mean your total run is 40 metres though.
Have a read here for further explanation.
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/solar-voltage-rise-drop/
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/shed-solar-distance/
And remember that with many modern high voltage hybrids, the battery can be some distance away (eg Solar Edge specify 50 metres) in a compliant position while the inverter is kept close to the switchboard.
https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/battery-installation-locations/