For years, solar owners had it easy. You looked for the highest solar feed-in tariff. You checked the usage rate and the daily charge were not silly. You picked the winning tariff and moved on.
That world is gone.
Daytime solar feed-in tariffs are racing towards zero. In some places, they already are. And for households with solar and batteries, that number barely matters anymore. A new number has taken its place. The evening battery feed-in tariff.
That is increasingly the number solar/battery owners compare. And it is quietly reshaping how people choose retail plans and how batteries are configured and used.
Until the rebate, most home batteries were 10 to 15 kWh bought by early adopters, generally with efficient houses. Those homes used most of their own energy, barely touched the grid, and paid very small bills. People grumbled about low solar feed-in tariffs, but life was good.
Big batteries were rare. If you had one, you paid a lot and knew what you were signing up for, often joining Amber and playing the wholesale price game. Others joined Virtual Power Plants (VPPs) to get a large upfront discount. I did exactly that. My Powerwall 2 cost under $4,000 because I signed up to a five-year VPP in 2017.
Battery-specific retail plans barely existed.
Then the battery rebate hit.
Now there are 30, 40, even 50 kWh batteries sitting in garages all over the country. People are no longer asking how to save money. They are asking how to earn money. For years, the answer was: “Join a VPP!”
But VPPs without a giant upfront bribe, have always been a hard sell. Most people think the issue is loss of battery-control. That matters, but it is not the showstopper. VPPs can be designed to give the consumer control. Amber is the perfect example1. The showstopper is the tech.
The installer of your large, inexpensive battery typically has little interest in spending hours setting up software, testing comms, and ensuring the battery responds properly to VPP signals. When it doesn’t work, the retailer receives the support call. Sometimes the manufacturer and DNSP do too.
Amber integration is often even harder. It relies on reliable battery control and on-demand solar curtailment. If the install is rushed or sloppy, the battery software is buggy, or the internet connection is flaky, the whole setup becomes fragile.
The Rise Of Battery Retail Plans
But there’s an alternative to VPPs that gives the consumer 80% of the benefits with almost none of the tech headaches – battery-specific retail plans with:
- Cheap or free usage rates during the day.
- High feed-in tariffs in the evening.
Most batteries can take advantage of these plans with basic timers. Many can be set up locally, sometimes by the owner, sometimes with a bit of installer help. Simply charge the battery on a timer, and discharge your spare capacity on another timer. Brutally simple.2
- Good for homeowners.
- Good for retailers.
- Good for installers.
- Good for support teams – at the installer, retailer, manufacturer and DNSP.
And it is easy to understand and compare these tariffs. Look for the highest evening feed-in tariffs. Check the usage rate and the daily charge are not silly. Pick the winning tariff and move on with your life.
Where this leaves VPPs
VPPs will not vanish. They still make sense where batteries are tightly integrated and properly supported. And they are the best way to support the integration of renewables into the grid.
But, for the household with plenty of kWh to spare, battery-specific retail plans with evening peak export tariffs look to me like the simple solution we’ve been looking for, with no need to relinquish control, or get tied up in a tech support nightmare.
Long live the feed-in tariff.
Just not the one we used to care about.
Phase Shift is a weekly opinion column by SolarQuotes founder Finn Peacock. Subscribe to SolarQuotes’ free newsletter to get it emailed to your inbox each week along with our other home electrification coverage.
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When they allow you to sell power to someone other than the company you have your electricity connection through, that is going to be the game changer.
Assuming your meaning selling to someone on a different DNSP’s network (but the same retailer)?
If so, you can already do it, look at Local Volts https://localvolts.com/ and pair with automation software such as Energy Manager https://energymanager.com.au/usersc/join.php?ref=FE8J34EN to provide the control over the system, based upon your requirements and pulling 5min pricing / solar and weather forecasts etc.
Take a look at LocalVolts, that is their main focus.
OK so give me a few examples of these new plans you are talking about?
Specific retailers and the specific plans please….
It depends on individual usage patterns however in nsw, good options are
Globird zero hero (free charging 11am-2pm, $1 for not importing between 6-8pm, up to 15c/kwh for 10kw between 6-8pm)
Agl battery rewards (25c/kwh between 5-9pm)
Origin Battery Starter (18c/kwh between 5-9pm)
Flowpower (45c/kwh between 5.30-7.30pm )
I’m with globird in Queensland. Same numbers.
And please include some that are available to regional consumers in Essential Energy areas.
Good examples for Essential Energy area are Amber and Local Volts.
LV is a bit more indepth as it also allows setting up buy/sell trading options and has no ‘fail safe’ limits on exports (i.e. if -ve $), but Amber is a good option for learning and seeing what your usage/trends are and then later on looking to move to LV.
You WILL need some software to allow automating / controlling your setup to best benefit yourself. LV is BYO software and Amber provides their own, but its is … ‘less than optimal’. Personally I’ve been using: https://energymanager.com.au/usersc/join.php?ref=FE8J34EN
I googled > South Australia small electricity retailers < the other day, and got a pretty good list, try that with your state or state / region.
There isn't much to assist, but to visit each site and click through, do your due dilligance for what suits your homes energy usage needs / patterns.
Be aware, energymadeeasy.gov.au is useless at finding the great battery FIT deals, just the regular plans . . . it's probably becasue it is so complex what's on offer, and comapring apples for apples.
Here is SA, with a battery there are some offers about.
Probably the best I have seen is iOenergy SA Sustainable Home plan.
37c peak TOU from 2100 evening through to 1000 next day, then a great 8c rate for 6 hours 1000-1600 (for winter top off etc), another 37c hour 1600-1700, then the one to avoid with your battery 85c 1700-2100.
NIL FIT through the day, but . . . they pay 30c FIT from 1800-2100, 3 hours to dump say 10kwh or so and cover the $1.65 daily supply charge easily, with some to spare.
Yeah, that’s the plan I’ve been on for quite some time – but for most of that I only had a 19kWh battery, so was not quite breaking even (although still saving heaps of money by charging my battery during winter at 8c/kWh).
They currently do have a -2c/kWh FiT during the solar 1000-1600 period, which if you don’t curtail can hurt a bit. When my EV charger is installed I’ll be able to ensure I don’t have to worry about that anymore though.
My inverter that is connected to my battery is only 5kW, which limits me to <15kWh exports during the 3-hour peak period, but that still means I'm in front by a couple of dollars a day.
Matt, can you curtail with your system automatically ?
Or do you have to intervene with your setup ?
I believe some systems can curtail when FIT goes negative, as with Amber mostly, but iOenergy has negative 2c now for that 6 hours ?
Does that drop off in winter ?
Things are getting even more complex now for plans it seems.
I can’t bring up the old window for the plan, not it says email a bill for their analysis.
SolarEdge like I have is all compatible I am fairly sure, but it’d want to be automated.
We know Les is in Adelaide, but where is Matt, and which plan is he on?
Comparing Adelaide with Victoria would be like comparing apricots with watermelons!
I now find that export money isn’t worth it, no matter how much it is.
We are in Adelaide and currently are with Diamond Energy. They are woeful!!
Just starting, but making shocking mistakes! Who pays their electricity bill by the quarter anymore? By the month can be bad enough, as we did once get a $1100 bill for the month, before the panels and battery, so multiply that by four!!
I think Origin does a plan where if you have a battery, it will work. That is if you programme it right. The peak period cost is high, but you will not go near it. The off-peak is around 20 cents, so you charge your battery then, use the power and recharge again at the 20 cents.
I have programmed out battery to do that, but Diamond’s cost is 39 cents, and not more available cheap hours.
Eric, Matt must be in SA too, I think ioenergy is only offering plans here, that was the case when I was checking them out a few months ago . . . maybe they have / plan to expand to other states / regions / DNSPs.
Funny hey ? I’ve never heard of Diamond Energy, still with AGL on EV Night Saver, at least until we eventually get a battery too, but I will be looking at theri battery rewards programme then before deciding what to do . . . we’ve been with them now for 40 years in this home, 25 years at our workshop, but there is little to gain from loyalty to power companies now.
I’m still on quarterly billing, just got my Oct-Jan bill, $320, almost exactly same usage as same period 2025, but went from cost per day 2025 $3.58 to cost now $4.89 . . . that’s the increase in peak TOU (53c) and 50% drop in FIT 4c to 2c.
We only have the 11.23kw solar, but self consume most of our needs, have to really analyse battery worth, keeping in mind future proofing.
Quarterly billing is 3 months 🙂
Thanks for this Finn. Useful information for me in the near future when I will be getting a biggish battery and more solar. I live on the mid north coast NSW and have a well sited good quality system which is ticking along well. I still get 12c kwh feed in tariff (for how long?) but my supply and time of use charges are high. I can control when timing of some uses well. Currently my usage is low so I am still in credit across the year but the benefits have been diminishing every year. Still the system has paid for itself so I’m fine.
However, around the time the solar/battery upgrade is done the usage on my property will go up significantly. But using the sort of plans referred to above I should still come out ahead.
That will definitely be the time for a reassessment of my retailer’s options and a careful analysis of competitors.
Personally I cannot imagine electricity retailers changing their spots, they are by nature bottom-feeding bloodsicking parasites with teams of experts constantly dreaming up ways to gouge their consumers. They have proven beyond doubt that they cannot be trusted and even if they propose something that ‘looks’ appealing, it will soon be changed. I accept that is their culture so I am creating a system whereby I will be totally independent of their predations..
Don.t be connected to the grid or r u like most people you don.t want to pay for the cost of the grid but want to use it
I’d like the grid companies to do something like the cellular mobile phone companies, so I could just plug our EV in anywhere using one billing system.
This could be a way to have two way charging with Vehicle to grid supply that everyone talks about, but virtually no-one’s ever done.
The same as I can use any company’s radio tower, anywhere in the country, without having 17 apps on my phone.
Hi Randy,
I think it’ll come but we need some innovation.
For “reasons” nobody can explain, EV charging isn’t even a tap’n go with your credit card yet.
How public transport in NSW and every car wash and every vending machine can accept card payments, while EV networks can’t, is just beyond a joke.
However the idea of an energy subscription you could take from home to work to public chargers is the way forward.
Being on grid with solar and battery has become the biggest con job ever.
Doesn’t matter how much you try to save money on your power bills these companies keep devising new ways to rip you off.
All companies plans are becoming of no worth to the user with more and more charges for this and that and when you use power at different times of the day.
Best plan is to buy an off grid property and set yourself up independent from these leaches and then tell them where to stick their power plans
Spot on I have a completely separate off grid system once my feeding dropped to 5 cents from 65 cents. The retailers are indeed blood sucking parasites the whole. Power system is run like a stock market
You’re right ! Not only connection fee , but compulsory peak time fee ( averaged) whether you use power or not . An extra $26 per month. Total fees before you even flick a switch $70.66 with gst . Feed in might make $20 off a 10 kw system pm .
How much of the daytime solar peak will be soaked up by Snowy Hydro 2.0 and other big storage projects coming on line over the next 5 years?
In other words, will daytime FIT’s ratchet back up?
Have wondered the same, with many big firms rushing to install batteries and other grid-level storage, there’s surely a market for cheap electricity to fill them. Many aren’t even bothering installing generation equipment alongside the storage any more.
Great advice as always Finn. Is SQ going to do a summary/assessment of available battery-specific retail plans at some point?
Also there are rumours Tesla may relent and allow Powershare for at least its latest Model Y and Model 3 some time this year, for those with an existing Powerwall. That would be a game-changer for me, the economics of a second battery don’t make a lot of sense for me (and I have a PW2, so there are basically no options anyway). But being able to use the car battery as a top-up on winter nights would be superb, any way you can ask them if that’s coming?
Yep, in 2023 early summer when our 11.23 PV went in, we were neutral in cost most summer days, just with solar . . . peak TOU was about 47c (13 hours a day !), FIT 6c.
July 2024 peak went up somewhat, FIT dropped by 33.3% to 4c, daily costs went to perhaps 50c – $1.
July 2025 Peak TOU went to 54c or so, FIT dropped 50% to 2c, and now looking at just ubnder $3.90 a day based on quarterly billing period just finished yesterday.
A battery of 10kw will well and truly cover us for all our usage, maybe a little credit inc daily supply ($1.10), 20kwh would guve us some great options for decent evening FIT dump of 10kwh, but what’s next ?
The last blog about supply charges, infrastructure warning of big increases there, I’m starting to see we won’t be let off the hook for ever escalating ways to get consumer $.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m happy paying something to be part of the grid, even this bill just received, if not for our huge self consumption of production, we’d be looking at $1000 bills.
Exactly l suggested in solar quotes months ago the solution was to pay a higher fit in peak hours to solve the duck curve 😀 😉
We started out without solar panels or a battery and were getting MONTHLY bills of up to $1100!!! That pushed me to get panels; it was the smartest thing ever, because they ended up being almost free! Then the panels were not enough, so we doubled them, but this time, we connected them to the 3-phase and put in a 10 KW SUNGROW battery before the rebate.
What is saving us, with only 3.5 cents for export, is that SUNGROW batteries can be charged from the grid. It took me months to work it out, but now it’s working really well.
I charge the battery at off-peak, from 12.00 am, to full charge; the battery kicks in at 6.00 am to run our commercial espresso machine (coffee is important!) The battery switches off at 8.00 am, and we are on solar panels.
When it’s back home time, the battery will switch on at 9.00 pm, and we stay on that until we go to bed and the charge starts again at 12.00 am.
The most important number for us is that off-peak one.
Thank you for your advice and comments; very useful for someone not technically minded like myself. We are in FNQ so, on the surface, seem to be limited to one supplier. Our feed in is 8c which we thought risible until we visited friends down south! At the moment our panels plus battery meets our needs with about $100 per month credit. For the our supplier charges $50 per month.
Are you aware of any alternatives? Or does our location mean we need to be happy with our lot?
Anthony, you’re DSPN is Ergon I think, and they bill you too through retail arm ?
Not sure, but I don’t think you even have other retailer options up there ??
My Brother in Bowen had 10kw pv and 10kwh battery put on a few years ago.
Up to when he sold that place about 6 months ago, His fixed rate was 34c inc gst, FIT 12.337c . . . he would be in credit $150 each month, nothing special, no VPP or supplier control, just the lower rate and excellent FIT.
His monthly supply charge was $41 inc gst.
I can speak from (unhappy) experience! I spent 3mths on Localvolts working with Powston to try and make the numbers add up.
Unfortunately, they do not, and are unlikely to in the future unless Ergon change their connection charges and tariffs.
The main problem are the standing charges. IMO Qld is not really a market player like those in the south. There is effectively no competition in regional QLD, Both Ergon and Energex are Qld Govt owned, basically a monopoly especially in regional areas. Ergon’s “special” tariffs for other retailers result in daily network fees of $2.90 or so in regional areas vs $1.80ish on Energex (basically SE QLD). They then add on all sorts of metering fees from Yurika (even taking the p155 like charging two metering charges for the same meter number!) By the time you add on the daily LV fees of $1.10, plus any fees for the energy management software, it ended up being around $116 per month for standing charges only. TBC…
This compares to Ergon’s fees (Tariff 14C) of about $42/mth. Given no market competition it was maxing out at about 25c/kWh return, I was unable to make it pay. Results for the 3mths were: $3dr/$32cr(I had to do a lot of manual work for that!)/$4dr. After all that work we did tweaking it I ended up with an average feed in return of about 10.7c/kWh…the standard Ergon offer is 8.7c!!! In the end it was not worth flogging my 75kWh of batteries for such minimal return. I was initially told that “you should make $1000-1500 pa with that amount of storage”. When you have to export at least $60-80/mth just to cover the network costs, it’s not even worth considering!
Caveat Emptor!
Low daily usage rates and higher evening feed in rates sounds great but we’ve go a Sungrow system, battery and inverter and there’s nothing in the app that allows force discharge settings, only force charge. I’ve seen a YouTube video of someone setting force discharge in the Sungrow app so I’m wondering if this option is available in Australia.
Since coming off another retailer and a smart app to dynamically manage the market trading I have moved back to a standing 8.7c/kWh with Ergon (see my post above).
That also prompted me to try and automate export of my storage overnight and I have just this weekend past put a Homeassistant Green mini PC on the network and I am almost finished testing a Sungrow inverter control integration that takes current storage available and next day forecast solar production into account to control and maximize the export overnight. I suspect it is the same configuration/HA code that various energy trading systems use sans the market data input/prediction. It took a couple of days to figure out, but it is doable even if you aren’t a coding nerd!
Would love to know my options in WA, just feels wrong sending 1.5kW to the grid and not being paid for it (but I have to pay them a daily charge?), just because my inverter is bigger than 5kW.
Agreed! Back to Andrews’s first comment. Can we donate to another user or at least reduce the daily charge? Need options
Get a bigger battery
I’m in a down-sized 3br house with a 6.6kW PV system (with not much roof space left to meaningfully add more PV) and a PW2.
I don’t qualify for the federal battery rebate but am considering a second PW2 if a still-good second-hand one was available (at a reasonable price) so as to be able to take advantage of solar sponge rates and my PV system to fill both PW2s to provide power through the evening/night until the start of the next day’s solar sponge period.
The current single PW2 can’t quite do this on cloudy days and especially in winter. Not looking at making money exporting during high-FIT periods, just looking at keeping consumption costs as low as possible.
Anyone know whether and where one can get hold of a still good second-hand (or maybe even a new) PW 2 ?
Why don’t you qualify?
My understanding is that only new batteries are eligible for the rebate and, since new PW2s are no longer available, my only realistic option is a second-hand PW2 which is not eligible. Am I incorrect ?
You might find an installer willing to install a Sigenegy battery and connect the PW2 to the Sig gateway’s smart port. Apparently it’s possible (so my installer said). Not sure what Tesla warranty would make of it.
Thanks for the suggestion Glen. My guiding principle on projects is the KISS principle which makes me lean heavily towards a second-hand PW2 in reasonable/good condition at a reasonable price which, when installed, will hopefully not impact the warranty on my current PW2.
Comment from above to follow -up
Nick says
January 10, 2026 at 7:50 am
Great advice as always Finn. Is SQ going to do a summary/assessment of available battery-specific retail plans at some point?
Also there are rumours Tesla may relent and allow Powershare for at least its latest Model Y and Model 3 some time this year, for those with an existing Powerwall. That would be a game-changer for me, the economics of a second battery don’t make a lot of sense for me (and I have a PW2, so there are basically no options anyway). But being able to use the car battery as a top-up on winter nights would be superb, any way you can ask them if that’s coming?:
Heres an idea even if i doubt they would consider it.
How about a FiT equivalent that just offsets against the fixed supply fees.
They get to avoid owing us anything and we get to avoid having to choose between having a bill regardless of how much power we provide them for free and going off-grid.
Calling it a FiT is fairly misleading – it’s a ToU FiT, and not relevant to most. You can only export during evening peaks if you have excess battery capacity to your own requirements, or if you dump to the grid during said peak, then draw on the grid overnight when your batteries are flat. That’s corporate subsidisation.
For those of us still on flat rates, a ToU FiT simply doesn’t make sense.
Then again, how much longer will the grid itself make sense? My own retailer’s looming changes mean I’ll soon cease being in the black, but the cost likely still won’t justify an on-grid battery.
Obviously I’ll need to have a hunt around for best plans, and double check battery prices but …
It’s not quite as easy as choosing a good evening tariff. You’re likely to also need some battery control software to effectively discharge the battery during the peak. My 2 x Tesla PW3 system is not very effective at doing this by itself when set to Time-Based control. It typically exports 2 to 3 kWh of electricity in the 5 – 9 pm peak when it could easily export 10 to 15 kWh during this period and still have enough storage to supply the night time usage. It looks like I would need to subscribe to NetZero battery automation software for this to be more optimized but the subscription fee of $10/mth would reduce increased income.
My review of various plan options is that subscribing to Amber is potentially more profitable though it is hard to be sure since usage and feed-in rates are variable (as well as generation and home use). I will probably trial Amber in mid-Feb when my current plan with 10c feed-in tarriff expires (reducing to 5c)
It would be nice if l could try to feed in at peak times but ausnet is not lifting the default feed in rate of only 1kw/hr. Their answer is we are overwhelmed and will change my settings when they have the man power
Amber biggest problem is non existent support. You literally can not talk to anyone. I’ve been trying to call and email for months now and got zero response.
Victoria is one of the worst states for FIT. Negative most of the days and at the best 6-10c on average in the evening. Making it incredibly difficult to make any money.
The VPP sounds good on the paper but they do not support all batteries and inverters.
I have Tesla PW3 x3 and they are unable to do solar curtailment!!! With negative FIT up to -20c that’s absolute financial suicide. I’d be paying them 5-10 dollars a day to take my electricity as they are unable to stop the FIT!!!
Absolute joke!!!
I am trying to get myself removed from VPP and disabled it in the app. By enrolling in the VPP the controls in the Tesla app disappear to disable export! Luckily in tech savvy so I ended up fighting amber via direct API calls where I can still disable FIT. But they keep overwriting it every hour! Horrible!!!
I totally agree with you in regard to Amber…absolutely ZERO support. Like you I have been with Amber for 5 months, have tried to contact them by phone, in-app, and with many emails. ZERO response until I contacted the Electricity and Water Ombudsman, and only after I had decided to cancel my account with Amber. I received only one bill from Amber in December for a 3 day period in August. In this 3 day period Amber stated that I had used 272 kWh. Absolutely absurd considering I was not in residence for that period. I can clearly prove from my Sigenergy battery that I used less than 2 kWh in that period. I am still waiting for the invoices from August to January. And I am still waiting for Amber to actually contact me regarding the gross overcharging.
HI Steve
Yes I am another disgruntled Amber client who consistently fail in their customer support– should be no support.
I have been with them for 5 months with no invoices and one reply to numerous emails, and no phone support.
Started with all promises and but no action.
Cheers Greg
Might this be a good time for Solarquotes to do a current review of Amber? After all, they are a factor in people choosing whether or not to get a battery.
We’ve just published an update on how they’ve been going
Guys, in 2025, whilst waiting for the Cheaper Home Batteries Scheme to kick in, I researched Amber. I have 40kWh Sig BESS.
Initially, due to my Enphase micros not being able to be remotely curtailed by Amber, they were unable to assist me.
But boy did they keep in touch – by email.
Once they could control Enphase, they were quick to inform me, quick to respond to some further questions and quick to update me.
I did not proceed with Amber (or any other VPP or VPP equivalent). All correspondences with them were pleasant.
Just wondering if I would have joined and I needed to correspond with them, would they have been so responsive????
No matter. Happy to run my solar pv & battery system for my all electric home and EV’s requirements.
Yep, when you look at battery cost and warranted throughput, you probably get a figure of 12 to 15c per kWh (cost). Running at less than that gives cash flow, but it risks longer term return.
li now have to give my excess solar away for 1 cent per kw yet buy it back at up to 34 cents per kw. that is a corrupt system. For me a battery is not economical. But I am lucky in that my inverter can be set to send zero to the grid. So I only self consume. What was up to 50kw daily to the grid at 7 to 11 cents per kw is no more. Guess the system will just have to turn up the cistern or gas.
Hi Charlie,
If you got a point of sale discount, one of Australia’s top 200 polluters has paid for your solar yield out to 2030. The Renewable Energy Target deems an amount of carbon pollution abated by an average solar panel and you get paid up front for that environmental goodness.
However if you’ve set zero export just to spite them, the incumbent industry players will be thanking you.
You’re denying every Australian energy which both drives fossil pollution out of the system & drives everyone’s prices lower.
A battery isn’t for everyone, but like roads, sewers, rubbish collection, medicare, the grid is a public good.
Demanding you get paid for what’s effectively worthless is a bit rich when you’ve already been paid to install the hardware that drastically lowers your bills.
Public transport is cheap between 9am & 3pm, that’s not corruption, but there’s some commercial realities we need to acknowledge.
Well, it was one of those nights last night in NSW, 40c heatwave and a demand at night that sent wholesale prices to $12/kWh. When that happens, assuming you don’t get hit importing at the time, can power yourself through it and have excess stored kWh to sell, Amber is the answer. I snapped up a quick $50 return.
6.6kW solar + 32kWh battery looks like coming out $500pa ahead, after all subscription, DNSP, occasional imports and other costs.
It is rare to come across daytime export prices that would net more than 0c/kWh on average. But that doesn’t matter; you just sell, in the preceding evening price peak, at least as much as you need to capture all the solar the next day. That pays some 10s of cents plus the smugness of knowing the solar duck flattening and decarbonising effects.
By the time enough of us doing it washes away some of the high peak earning potential, it will lower prices for all and be enough to know that the government co-investment worked.
I am in NSW (Ausgrid) with Amber as well. Looking to switch away. I had 9.9Kw solar with 13.5Kw Tesla Powerwall 2 Battery. I was thinking I have plenty solar to fully charge my Tesla and even my a/c running it is still enough to be better off. Last month bill I was hit demand surcharge. last Saturday heatwave, there is price spike. However, my battery already flat. I noticed that Amber turns control software sometimes delay charge my battery and send solar out to grid during negative solar tariff. Maybe my battery capactity is too low to co-op my house a/c usage. Anyone has good suggestion of better retail to switch to? Also, I was on origin before, my house somehow still on flat rate mode even I got smart meter and used TOU before. Maybe due to Tesla VPP switched mode back. Origin suggest to keep on flat rate rather than TOU as it is one way transferring.
Ausgrid’s demand charge window running from 3pm is highway robbery and needs to be stopped by the regulator. It is terrible with batteries; a stupidly blunt tool that shuns batteries turning up to the job to help using scalpels.
Because it takes the single highest half hour in the month and only that, you might decide to charge your battery when prices are negative (but still ludicrously in a ‘demand’ window) at 10kW at 3pm, just once for half an hour and never draw from the grid in the demand window for another moment that month. And get hit for ~$120! Even if the purpose was to export it back in the actual demand period around 7pm or so…
Early opening of demand windows is an active disincentive to using batteries to smooth actual demand issues.
Why waste the time and effort playing in rhe retailers swamp when independence is perfectly achievable ?? It is perfectly obvious that the culture of bloodsuckers is to gouge customers … I won’t give the grubs that opportunity.
That’s very easy to answer: 1) I export my renewable, excess solar into the fossil-heavy evening peak, and even move some majority renewable grid energy into it with arbitrage; 2) I was given a good chunk of money by taxpayers for the system, especially the recent battery and they deserve that I use it in a way that decreases our collective carbon emissions and contributes to cheaper electricity prices for all; and 3) leaving the ethics aside, I make actual money.
Yes, so WA! Account for 2 months electricity came in – $87.00.
Cost of supply – $77.00. cost of electricity used – $10.00
Amount sent to grid – immense. Sungrow estimate over $3,000.00 worth sent to grid at 2c per kilowatt. But like you I get nothing for contributing so zero income/offset. Batteries are the only offset.
Legal theft takes many forms!
All fine and dandy UNLESS you have a Sungrow system. Ive got two Sungrow inverters with 19.2 of Sungrow battery. Sungrow Support states that the iSolar app and their systems CANNOT be programmed to feed to the grid during specific times. AGL say their plan is compatible “with any battery”, but that’s misleading.
Finn,
My system is 24kW solar + 12kW invertor + 48kWh Sigenergy battery controlled by Amber.
Q1. Who benefits from Amber telling my inverter to export 5kW/hr at zero cents back into the grid? (Amber claim their only income is from the monthly $25/month subscription. Only Amber monitors how much is fed back to the grid from my house)
Endeavour Energy or Amber ? Others ?
As I understand it, Endeavour Energy and other retailers benefit since they monitor the energy imported by their customers. The more “free” energy floating in the grid means they make more profits.
Currently when I see this happening I isolate from the grid. With my large battery I can last a week or more and do not require importing from the grid. I often isolate over the weekend as the FIT rates are very low.
Amber highlight they use AI to control their system, but I have suggested they would be better off having a simple time-based control by only exporting between 4pm and 8pm during weekdays plus any spike events.
hi, im in vic 66kw solar 70kwh battery. I was with amber couldn’t curtail my sungrow battery with them., moved to covau, overcast days restricted my gains, moved to zerohero glowbird works a treat. Covau didnt pay out what they owed me in credits, quoting page 47 of the fine print where if I left them they weren’t required to payout any feed in credits. Which sucks but worth noting if yiur considering covau.
I’m in SA, looked into the new Origin battery plans for which my system qualifies but I’m also using a CPAP so considered an Essential Medical Equipment customer therefore ineligible for the plans. I do have the option of revoking the EME flag on their website but they’re REALLY not keen. Tried to talk me out of it on the phone, one customer service guy found out what I wanted, said hang on for a minute then left me waiting for over 20 minutes, not on hold with the usual boring music, just hanging. Phoned back, spoke to someone else who reluctantly agreed to send me the necessary paperwork via email. Still waiting – two weeks later. My thinking, with the battery the CPAP will stay on anyway. With past unplanned outages prior to getting the panels and battery if the power went off I’ve woken up gasping for air so what’s the big deal? All very sus
You forgot to mention something very important that is happening in SA.
PowerSA is enforcing the Export limit 24×7.
Why is this relevant? Because many manufactures that have been selling their (Government approved) devices in Australia use this setting to do the Curtailment (stopping their devices to export when FiT is negative, something happening daily in SA).
So the current situation for everyone in SA using these devices is: You can’t curtail anymore. You change the setting (that used to work last summer) and 5 minutes later is overwritten by PowerSA, forcing you to export all the unused energy generated by your Solar Panels, even if the Power grid is overloaded with Solar Energy and FiT is negat.
Be careful, because you don’t care removing you ability to curtail your own system and this will go to the other states, eventually.
IMPORTANT: If you plan to buy a battery, make sure you ask if the Curtailment depends on the Export limit setting to enable it or not. If yes, say no.
Hi Sebastian,
I’d be keen to see documentation of this claim.
Please let us know the details.
Seb, I would also like to see anything you can find on that, and you must mean SAPN.
I googled quickly, and all I can find is flexible exports 1.5kw to 10kw per phase, tried numerous terms compulsory, etc, all they have restrictions on is some country areas under SWER at zero exports permanently . . . and the only compulsory that came up > “Compulsory” Requirement: While you have a choice of limits, all new exporting systems installed from July 1, 2023, must be “dynamic exports capable” to comply with SA Government regulations. <
You can take fixed exports (zero to 1.5kw), varies but is low and most solar / battery owners would be mad to go that route.
Of course they can take that to zero is netwrok stability requires it, but forst SAPN limit big solar / wind, then large commercial rooftop, then residential, and they say they haven't had the need to date to do this zero limit for residential rooftop.
I'm almost SURE they would welcome curtailment when FIT goes negative.
My attitude is heavily cynical of the retail electrical racket.due to the constantly moving goalposts which ALWAYS benefit the retailers and disadvantage consumers..Fair play does not exist , ergo my determination to look after my interests and to Hell with the establishnent. Maybe it is possible for cinsumers to get ahead of the system tempirarily but there will always be teams beavering frantically away to keep the big players ahead..I don’t have the time or the inclination to go to war against extremely well resourced bloodsuckers … I am well ahead of the crowd after 15 years of 59c FiT, when that runs out I see the best way forward as off-grid independence without attempting to squeeze a few more drops of blood out of the turnips.
A lot of people would feel this way for sure Doug . . . and govco is hard to trust too . . . words to the effect of “the battery must be VPP capable, even though it doesn’t have to be connected to a VPP” . . . I can just envisage there may come a time that a “yet” could have been added to that.
The evolution of our electricity system has everyone trying to negotiate what is best for them, what is best for the environment and hopefully what is best for the collective good. The retailers have never made this easy so very few people understand how their electricity supply works or is costed.
However, the rollout of renewables continues apace with rooftop solar being a no brainer for most.
When Vehicle to the Grid finally happens and the nation’s EV fleet can be integrated into the system the peak demands can be dealt with using the massive storage capacity in an EV dominant scenario.
And then there is Hydrogen from water hydrolysis.
If we get there and there are massive amounts of power being fed into the grid and massive amounts being stored in batteries (home and EVs) that could be used for cheaply producing hydrogen (or doing other useful decarbonisation work) it should make it easier to get to net zero emissions.
Australians love incentives – find the right ones.
Your right v2g because the batteries are big will be great but it takes a lot of renewable energy to make little green hydrogen one reason why twiggy forest gave the idea away and is switching to batteries !!
Hydrogen may never make it, anywhere. The company which began to market a domestic electrolysis_adsorption-store_fuel-cell system almost immediately switched to selling/leasing batteries, some years ago now. The damn thing was only 40% efficient, and had to be installed many metres from a dwelling. It never took off.
Hydrogen cars are as dead as a dodo – not just because of purchase cost, but a semi-trailer load of hydrogen fills only 50 cars. Fuel logistics is inherently impossibly uneconomical.
BEVs have made hydrogen cars impossible to make economical.
Mærsk have a couple of methanol fuelled ships running. That and ammonia are probably the only way ICE engines will continue to be used, in two decades time.
Gigantic gridscale batteries destroy hydrogen store economics, as battery prices fall. Even pumped hydro may struggle, and geothermal will soon eat hydrogen’s lunch – it was a cute but impractical idea.
Yes hydrogen can’t compete with batteries !!
By comparison to Canada, Australia has virtually no need for long-term energy storage.
And Canada’s carbon tax is scheduled to be $170 per tonne in four years, meaning it’ll cost an extra $500 AUD to burn one tonne of coal. About $190 AUD EXTRA Per MWh of coal electricity.
What would that do to Australia’s economy? Now imagine it with the temperature outside your house colder than your freezer.
It’ll boil down to whatever is cheapest. Right now, nuclear looks the cheapest because you don’t need to collect wind and solar from several hundred places, and have to store it for ay least half a day, plus build natural gas backup and gas storage and handling systems.
Canada produces about 4 million tonnes of industrial H2 a year. Just 3 or 4 thousand tonnes were ftom “green” sources by 2023, clearly a hopelessly inadequate.scale.
So maybe geothermal for non combustion heat. But we might use H2 for transport.
H2 can’t compete with batteries for short term storage. But maybe for long term shifts like summer to winter. Our rooftop solar delivered 1,700 KWh in July. But just 88 KWh in December.
And our EV burns more than twice the electricity in winter, plus the heat pump needs 3,000 KW-h of electricity.
And we have wind power,of course. It also varies from 4,000 MW, down to less than 100 MW in very cold weather.
All of Australia is closer to the Equator, than any of Canada. Some things that work for you aren’t for everyone, and surely some things we do would never work, there. You probably never have to light a wood fire under a propane tank on a cold day, to get enough gas, for instance.
Hi Randy,
I always thought Canadians were polite… but if you’re lighting a fire under an LPG tank I’m beginning to think maybe the cold has driven you all mad?
Or maybe it’s your sothern neighbours that have brought on the insanity?
Good luck in any case, we’re all going to need some.
By road, our town in Alberta is about equidistant from Inuvik in the North, to Mexico City. So propane not boiling in the tank problem is less common here and I’ve never had to heat a tank, because our heating gas here is mostly methane. But in the old days, or off grid, a fire underneath is just what you do.
It has been down around -55 C in the Mackenzie Delta region. Propane is a liquid at -42 C so you get nowt to run the generator unless you warm up the tank. And worse, a leak will draw air into the tank.
While the sunrise festival was Jan 9 to 11, it’ll be a couple more months before the solar farms are putting out anything significant.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/inuvik-s-propane-switch-means-more-truck-traffic-1.1161622
(The reporter is perhaps French, and used the word “air” instead of “gas”. An “air” mix you might hear all the way to Sydney)
“Inuvik, N.W.T., is switching to diesel and a propane-air mix “
For those playing at home Randy is talking about latitudes similar to northern Sweden.
I’m pretty sure that’s where you can pour liquid propane (LPG) into a wine glass and it’ll stay liquid.
In other words, too cold for me, or humans more generally.
Randy do you know if places like Inuvik can use ground source heat pumps? Might be a better alternative to drilling for more fossil gas?
They sometimes use heat pumps to prevent the permafrost from thawing in summer.
I doubt it would be practical to use geothermal heat pumps to extract heat as frozen ground conducts heat only slowly. And the electricity is mostly from diesel, for a town of 3300. Huge reductions can be made in the South, Alberta has 5 million population with a power grid 1/3 the UK average output.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/it-scares-me-permafrost-thaw-in-canadian-arctic-sign-of-global-trend-1.4069173
Permafrost is 100 metres thick on the Mackenzie river delta. Further north at Tuktoyaktuk, it’s up to 500 metres thick. Think of it is more dirty ice sheet, than solid land. Imagine 100s of centuries of dead leaves, poo, carcases, stines, silt, etc partly decomposed, freeezing as it accumulates, thawing a bit in summer.
But yes, go deep enough and there’s an unlimited supply of heat. Or use CO2 as a working fluid and the boiling point is -78 C so heat or ground source is good.