Tesla Powerwall 2 Vs Ampetus Super Lithium

Ironman vs superman

Can Ampetus’ Super Lithium battery beat Elon’s Powerwall 2?

A lot of attention has been paid to the Tesla Powerwall 2 lately on account of how it promises to dramatically cut the cost of home battery storage.  And when I wrote “promises” I chose that word carefully on account of how that’s all we got at the moment.  We won’t know what it’s capable of until next month when Tesla promises the first installations will be done.

But there is a battery being sold in Australia which, at this point in time, appears to beat the Powerwall 2 on price.  It’s called the Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery.  According to the information I have been given, its cost per warranted kilowatt-hour comes to 18.7 cents a kilowatt-hour when cycled once per day.1

This is better than what Tesla offers and is around 11% cheaper than the DC version of their Powerwall 2.  But the Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery is most impressive when it is cycled 1.4 or more times per day.  Under these circumstances its warranted cost per kilowatt-hour of storage falls to 13.6 cents2, which is less than two thirds that of the DC Powerwall 2 when cycled in a similar way.

Round 1 to Super Lithium

Before everyone gets too excited, I will point out that it is just a battery and at those prices it doesn’t come with any additional hardware.  It’s not like the AC version of the Powerwall 2 which has a built in battery inverter and is (hopefully) all ready to be wired into a home switchboard.  A better comparison would be with the DC Powerwall 2, as both it and the Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery will need a multimode mode inverter (also known as a hybrid inverter) to be used for home energy storage.

Most homes are likely to cycle their battery systems once or less per day, but if you have an application where the battery needs to by cycled more often, then the Ampetus battery could be very cost effective.

It also has an advantage over the Powerwall as its usable capacity is only 2.7 kilowatt-hours.  This is considerably less than the 13.5 kilowatts of storage of the Powerwall 2 and this smaller size can make it much easier for the average home to regularly use all its stored energy, which is useful for getting the best economic return.

Ampetus “Super” Lithium Battery Specifications

The Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery has 3 kilowatt-hours of nominal capacity, a recommended depth of discharge of 90% giving 2.7 kilowatt-hours of usable storage, and can supply a continuous 1.5 kilowatts of power.  With suitable cabling and other hardware it is possible to add as many individual batteries to a system as required.

Details of the Apetus “Super” Lithium battery can be found on our battery comparison table.

I have also placed a screenshot of its specifications from its product brochure below:

Ampetus "Super" Lithium battery specs.

What It Looks Like

This is what the Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery looks like:

Sinlion Battery

As you can see, the pragmatic, prismatic, brutalist design stands in stark contrast to the sleek white aestheticism of the Powerwall 2.  Also, it looks like a rectangular black box with handles.

It is made to slide into a rack and so looks somewhat similar to a computer server.  If you don’t know what a computer server is, they are things that make the internet work and contain the sum total of human knowledge, which is mostly cat videos.  However, just because it somewhat resembles a server it doesn’t mean the two are interchangeable, so keep that in mind if you ever get a job in a data center.

It Is A Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery

Lithium batteries come in several different flavors.  However, they all taste bad, so don’t try eating them, as they may even taste fatal.  The Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery’s particular chemistry is lithium iron phosphate, which is the toughest type of lithium battery around.  They degrade more slowly than other lithium batteries giving them a long lifespan and they are the lithium battery least likely to catch on fire, which is a useful safety advantage.

It’s Made In China

Ampetus is an Australian company, but the batteries are manufactured in China by the Sinlion company3 in Wuxi, a city of 6.4 million just half an hour’s train ride west of Shanghai.  China has a massive amount of battery manufacturing capacity and there is a good chance it will end up dominating world production.  The country apparently produced over 100,000 electric buses in 2016 and that alone represents a lot of batteries.

There are definitely people who would prefer it if the battery were were made in Australia.  But when you think about it, the battery is lithium iron phosphate and what does Australia export to China?  Lithium, iron, and not phosphate.  And two out of three ain’t bad.

Operating Temperature

The operating temperature of the Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery is -20 to 55 degrees Celsius, which is excellent for Australian conditions.  So far, since reliable records started being taken, no where in Australia has the temperature ever gone above 50.7 degrees in the shade.  But the coal industry is hard at work trying to change this.

It Requires An Enclosure

The environmental protection rating of the Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery is IP21.  This means it should be protected against a small amount of water dripping on its top surface, but that just covers accidental drips and drops.  It can’t handle being left out in the rain.  This means it will definitely need a protective enclosure if it is to be installed outdoors and it will still need one indoors on account of how batteries and children don’t play well together.

Batteries don’t even get on well with cats, who have been known to lie on top of them when it is cold, as charging and discharging warms them up.  If you are going to let your cat lie on top of unprotected batteries, I understand Persians are better insulated than most.

persian kitten on a battery

An enclosure for the Ampetus Super Lithium battery will be an additional expense.  The Powerwall has the advantage of having its batteries all sealed up inside a weather resistant plastic case made to handle the elements outdoors

Pricing And Warranty

It appears that until now, it was not possible to buy a single Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery for $2,300 and receive a warranty that covers the first of 15 years or 16,930 kilowatt-hours4.  But I have been assured by Ampetus single batteries are now available at that price and and with that warranty.  The warranty promises they will maintain at least 60% of their nominal 3 kilowatt-hour capacity.

This is the best warranty of any battery I am aware of.

The 15 Year Warranty Is Not On The Ampetus Site

I have been assured their “Super” Lithium battery will come with a 15 year warranty, and on their site they clearly state in large letters with an exclamation point after them:

“15 year warranty!”

But if you go to the Ampetus site and download their warranty document you will see it is only for 10 years.  So be certain to get a 15 year warranty in writing from them before you buy.

“These Batteries Will Serve You For 27 Years!” – Really?

On their website, Ampetus states:

“These batteries will serve you for 27 years!”

However, they only supply a 15 year warranty for the Ampetus Super Lithium battery.  (Or 10 years if you go by the warranty you can download from their site.)

If they were 100% certain their battery would last 27 years then they would provide a 27 year warranty.  That’s just common sense.  But since they don’t offer a 27 year warranty it seems to me they are not 100% certain.

There is no particular reason why a well made lithium iron phosphate battery could not last 27 years, but if it is cycled once per day it is going to end up pretty degraded.  I wouldn’t be surprised if it was well below 50% of its original capacity after that long.

The trouble with Ampetus stating their battery, “…will serve you for 27 years!” is that under Australian consumer law this could be regarded as an express warranty that Ampetus will be required to honour.  This means if it breaks down after 20 years Ampetus may be required to give a customer a repair, replacement, or partial refund.

I’ve written about the problem of unwitting battery warranties here.

Most Home Batteries Will Be Cycled Less Than 1.4 Times Per Day

Ampetus has assured us their warranty will cover the first of 15 years or 16,930 stored kilowatt-hours.  This gives an excellent cost per warranted kilowatt-hour of storage of around 13.6 cents when cycled 1.4 or more times a day.  But thanks to the increasing average size of rooftop solar systems and the electricity consumption habits of the typical Australian home, most people are likely to cycle their batteries less than this per day.  Reposit says battery systems that don’t use Reposit are cycled an average of 0.8 times a day while those that use the Reposit system are cycled an average of 1.3 times a day.

But when cycled once a day the cost per warranted kilowatt-hour when cycled once per day is only 18.7 cents, which is still the best of any battery I know of.

The Ampetus Super Pod

The Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery has a great price and beats the Tesla Powerwall 2 on cost per warranted kilowatt-hour, but they are not directly comparable.  Particularly not with the AC version of the Powerwall 2 which contains a battery inverter that should enable it to be installed with any existing rooftop solar system.

But Ampetus will be more than happy to sell you their “Super Pod” which is a system that contains from 1 to 5 “Super” Lithium batteries for a total of 2.7 to 13.5 kilowatt-hours of usable storage that is all ready to be AC coupled to an existing solar system, or if you prefer it can be DC coupled with a multimode inverter.

ampetus energy pod

The Ampetus Energy Pod can be AC or DC coupled.

In the future I might look into the details and pricing of the Ampetus “Super Pod”, but for now you are probably better off talking to Ampetus.

Low Cost Reliable Storage For The Right Application

For people who just want a reliable battery of around 2.7 kilowatt-hours of usable capacity, which I imagine would include many people using DC off-grid systems, then the Ampetus “Super” Lithium has a very reliable and, for a lithium battery, safe chemistry.  It also has the advantage it currently can’t be beat on cost per warranted kilowatt-hour.

For those who want to use it for normal home energy storage, whether or not it can beat other systems on price will depend on the cost of purchasing and installing the supporting hardware.  But as each Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery has only 2.7 kilowatt-hours of usable storage, this makes it easy to size the battery storage to a household’s needs and ensure it operates at a high capacity, which is help improve its economic return.  It should be particularly suited for situations where it will be cycled more than once per day.

Footnotes

  1. Cost per warranted kilowatt-hour is the cost of the battery divided by how much stored electricity it will provide.  The Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery has a nominal capacity of 3 kilowatt-hours with a recommended 90% depth of discharge, which gives it a usable capacity when new of 2.7 kilowatt-hours.  I have been told its warranty covers the first of 15 years or 16,930 kilowatt-hours of stored energy while maintaining a minimum of 60% of its nominal capacity.  For simplicity, I have assumed a linear deterioration from 90% of nominal capacity down to 60% over 15 years.  This means the average cycle will be 2.25 kilowatt-hours.  Over 15 years when cycled once per day it will provide a total of around 13,150 kilowatt-hours.  $2,300 divided by 13,150 gives 18.7 cents.
  2. When cycled 1.4 times or more a day the warranty will end when when it has supplied 16,930 kilowatt-hours.  $2,300 divided by 16,930 is 13.6 cents.
  3. I have to admit I am a little regretful that Sinlion did not get translated as “Naughty Big Cat Battery Company”.
  4. I’d like to thank a Looney for pointing this out to me.
About Ronald Brakels

Many years ago now, Ronald Brakels was born in Toowoomba. He first rose to international prominence when his township took up a collection to send him to Japan, which was the furthest they could manage with the money they raised. He became passionately interested in environmental matters upon his return to Australia when the local Mayor met him at the airport and explained it was far too dangerous for him to return to Toowoomba on account of climate change and mutant attack goats. Ronald then moved to a property in the Adelaide Hills where he now lives with his horse, Tonto 23.

Comments

  1. Christopher says:

    Interesting I have a lot of spare rack space these days

    so each rack is 3kw worth other power 10x racks needed for 30kw

    what RU size are they 4 ?

  2. To 70%m the warranties are:
    Sinlion: 10.95MWh/2.7kWh At $2300 = 21c/kWh
    PW2: 37.8MWh/13.5kWh = At $8000 = 21c/kWh

    I wouldn’t hope for better than warranty performance, nor extend the time of operation, but perhaps battery quailty may be compared:

    Sinlion warranties 10.95MWh/2.7kWh = 4.05MWh per kWh of capacity. Power/Capacity ratio = 0.55
    PW2 warranties 37.8MWh/13.5kWh = 2.80MWh per kWh of capacity, Power/Capacity ratio = 0.37*
    * Power may be 3kW reducing the ratio to 0.22

    Which may be the more durable battery, or the one nursed to survive?

  3. Has anybody taken the time to look at the Enphase battery? I would be very interested in seeing it reviewed here . dave

    • Ronald Brakels says:
      • I have been running an Enphase 1.2 kW Storage Battery for a few months now and on average I am getting about 1 kWh per day returned from storage to consumption. So that works out at about 0.275c per day or $100.37 PA. At an installed price of $2,200 [as at Feb 2017] $1,833 per kW they do not make financial sense when the Tesla Powerball 2 installed is $10.350 [or there about] for 13.5 kW or approximately $766 per kW. I pretty much think that Enphase’s market share at its price point has probably evaporated before it got started. The company I have been dealing with has indicated that we should waiting for at least 6 months to see what Enphase do in this market.

  4. We installed an Enphase Storage Battery 1.2kW it provides about 1 kWh per day during out of sunlight hours or during the day when consumption is more than PV production, At the moment at an installed price of $2,200 to save about $100.00 per annum they do not make economic sense. Our installer has advised us to wait at least 6 months [from Feb 2017] to wait and see what Enphase do about their unrealistic pricing.

  5. I know you like warranties, Ronald. This one is for the 3kWh battery, prior to revision. Ampetus also provide a test document for the cell, offering >5800
    cycles to 8.5Ah (from 10Ah), at 2C (20A) but neither warranty reflects that performance. Are one, or none of those documents correct?

    Warranties won’t deny the fact that other than LTO, Lithium-ion cells do not operate for 10 years, and remain in good health.
    The PW2 will perhaps just meet the warranty, because it is already wasting capacity and power output at the manufacturer’s cost to offer what it does, so extension is unlikley.
    http://www.ampetus.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Sinlion-3KWH-WARRANTY_SL-1009.pdf

  6. Jack Wallace says:

    um “……… unprotected batteries, I understand Persians are better insulated than most.” ,,,,,I’ll bite: Where do you plug ’em in?

    The pricing/use nexus, while interesting, can never be much more than a guesstimate, given all the variables ~ including even the weather.
    However, I note that a ‘good’ deep-cycle LA battery with a three-year warranty will provide the required storage at about 15c per kwh ~ ie about as good as the ‘best’ of the hi-tech stuff on offer.
    And the kicker is the simplicity ~ ie the ease and cheapness of repair/replace ~ of those lead-acid batteries which puts them streets ahead in terms of reliable day-to-day (and DIY) use.
    Though I’m in favour of scientific advancement on all levels, I don’t want to be the one billed for the (invariable) function of the ‘OOPS’ factor.

    • Michael Brinkworth says:

      My cats have always come with a standard USB 2.1 port at the back end. They do get this funny look on their cute little furry faces when I’m charging them overnight. 🙂

  7. Hi My house that im building is 747 square meters in size plus pool and large shed so my question is even though we are using the most energy efficient electrical appliances is battery storage viable. Cheers Ken

    • Ronald Brakels says:

      Hello Ken, unfortunately, unless your circumstances are very unusual, on-grid home battery storage won’t pay for itself yet. But it may not be long before it does. If you think you may want to install batteries in the future then you may want to consider installing a larger solar system than you would otherwise get.

      If you are thinking of getting something like a Powerwall 2, I’ve written about how you’ll probably need a minimum of 5 kilowatts of solar panels here:

      https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/buying-powerwall-2-youll-need-lots-solar-panels-charge/

      • Jack Wallace says:

        All variable, Ron. I’ve just removed a 20kw system from the roof of a pub (which probably wasn’t anywhere near 747 gross (sic) square metres ~ the size of a whole village in many places of the world) and which provided about 75% of the power required. (Kyneton Victoria). On that sort of scale the variation of day-to-day ~ or even hour-to-hour ~ production is a critical factor. Averages are an irrelevance.
        I’m surprised someone even contemplating constructing a footprint of that size for their own egotistical reasons isn’t also installing a nuclear power station. The exhaust system could help warm the 120,000 people sleeping in the streets and parks every night.

  8. Can the Ampetus be used for emergency backup? I know it doesn’t store a lot, but we are looking for something that can work with our solar to give us emergency power when the state’s power supply gets knocked out again by giant dinosaurs.

    • Ronald Brakels says:

      The Ampetus certainly could be use for emergency backup, with a suitable multimode (hybrid) inverter. But if it is just blackouts you are worried about, you are likely to be much better off economically getting a generator.

      • No, not just blackouts: I’d love to not be using the tiny amount of grid power that we do overnight. Smugness is my motivator, not economics.

        • Jack Wallace says:

          Tanya, speaking as someone who’s been seeking the best efficiencies for more than half a century, I’m confident in saying (yep, again!) that for an efficient energy-user a suitably-sized lead-acid deep-cycle battery bank is the ONLY rational way to go. (AGM batteries though not strictly deep-cycle are also ~generally~ a good investment.) They’re cheap these days, easy to DIY installation, come in component-sizes that allow easy/cheap repair/replacement of any failures that occur (and ANY system is susceptible to failure….particularly one for which you pay a fortune on the basis of many years of usage. (and that’s including the dewey-eyed belief that the company guaranteeing your batteries for 10 years will still be in business TWO years from now. And don’t forget that if a single small component if this stuff packs it in you lose the LOT.
          And all the same arguments apply to the cheap-on-ebay other components: regulators, inverters, circuit-breakers, etc. There are many variations-on-a-theme available to all this; feel free to drop me a line ([email protected]) if you like. (And no, I’m not trying to sell a product.;) )

          • Suitably sized were the interesting words there. I’m genuinely interested but most lead acid batts have some major pitfalls.
            1. Much shorter cycle life if deep cycled.
            2. Only 30-50% usable energy storage
            3. A lot heavier to transport
            4. Take up a lot more usable space which is a genuine concern in the urban environment.
            5. Can degrade faster in hot and humid conditions.

            The Ultra tech developed by CSIRO combining supercaps and lead acid looks promising but is more expensive per kwh than Lithium. Plus if you did the same thing with Lithium you could no doubt extend their lifespan.

            I’d like to see the math as if space isn’t a concern then you certainly wouldn’t rule out lead acid.

            Also you don’t lose the lot if a single small component fails. Lithium is no harder than lead acid to replace and if its like the Tesla and made up of 18650’s it would actually be considerably cheaper and easier and covered by warranty. Every individual cell is fused so losing a single cell would not stop the system from working. It would just throw up a fault and capacity would be reduced until fixed.

  9. I really don’t understand why a battery would not be topped up with excess solar during the day for use during peak pricing after soalr becomes insufficient and again on off peak over night for use in the morning peak pricing before solar can take over. Time of Day pricing of electricity is a boon for the solar and battery industry now the generous feed in tariffs are finished. Programmable controllers that generally allow battery use only during peak pricing periods but which are automatically overridden during blackouts or insufficient solar are what is required. It would lead to batteries being cycled a up to twice a day.

    • Jack Wallace says:

      ….um…. I thought the ambition for efficient power production/use was to cycle battery-banks as INfrequently as possible.
      Or am I missing something?

      And have I mentioned that given the miniscule FiT available these days (particularly relative to the Viagra-fed ‘service-to-property charge) obviously makes staying connected to the grid ~ in order to fiddle the TOU apps ~ is patently daft. Why would anyone pay some company for the privilege of donating power to the grid.?

  10. Jack Wallace says:

    Incidentally (” But the Ampetus “Super” Lithium battery is most impressive when it is cycled 1.4 or more times per day.” & similar provisos) assumes there’s enough daylight, EVERY day, to achieve that cycling.

    The obvious safeguard, of course, is to put up many more cheap panels than you actually require ~ assuming you have that sort of roof-space AND a modern house (engineered to tiny tolerances) built strongly enough to carry the weight and windloads.
    But then the problem becomes:- WTF do I do with the extra MW or two generated when the sun IS shining brightly. (as happens even in Melbourne sometimes.)
    Solution!…contribute it to the power-company, along with your cash contribution for being allowed to do so via the Service-to-Property charge..

  11. They lost me at the name “Super” lithium… When I saw the release, I dismissed it as spam… whoops.

    • Ronald Brakels says:

      I could have told them they’d sell twice as many if they’d gone for “Batman” lithium instead…

  12. Laurie Kane says:

    I don’t understand the point of comparing a complete battery+inverter system with a battery only system using a cost of energy equation. For this to be meaningful surely the complete enclosure or at least a suitable battery inverter should be included in the equation?

    That said, the problem with such ‘generous’ warranties using an optimistic system lifetime is that if the batteries fail after 10-12 years there’s a reasonable chance that the company offering the warranty will not be around to support it.

    This is what played out in the inverter marketplace over recent years and left many installation companies having to pay out of their own pocket for replacements.

    Lithium batteries don’t generally degrade slowly the way lead acid do. They may endure more cycles – and there is some logic to regular cycling to get the best energy throughput within the battery life – but I would still expect a significant decline within 15 years, and wouldn’t expect more than a trickle at the 27 year mark.

    At this early stage of their evolution, I wouldn’t recommend banking on much more than 10 years lifetime from lithium batteries. The extended warranty is their gamble of a company that has been around for a little over a year.

    Maybe the marketing department got a little too excited on this one?

  13. As Laurie said in his post sny meaningful comparison needs to factor in the equipment to connect said battery system to household power. In the case of the Ampetus battery it dies not include the Battery Charger, Invertet or an IP65, 66 enclosure. The cost of these things alone would add approximately $3K to the cost of the total system NIL for the Powerwall 2 system. A better compsrison would be Ampetus’s Energy Pod with 14Kwh or nearest value of batteries. The Energy Pod with 5Kwh of Super Lothium Batteries is $8800, if this is updraded to match the Powerwall 2 the cost would well exceed the Powerwall 2 requiring another 2-3 batteries @$2300 a pop. This then should be the basis for caculating the actual cents per Kwh and cost of the system. When you take these factors into consideration the Powerwall 2 is still the cheapest system available and its backed by a Mult-billion dollar company subject to strict corporations and consumer laws in the USA unlike companies in China which is where the Super Lithium batteties come from. That said there are benifits to the Ampetus Energy Pod such as replacing and upgrading individual batteries which is something l don’t think can be done in the Powerwall 2. For that reason l think the Energy Pod will appeal to Tech heads whereas the Powerwall2 will appeal to practically everyone else.

    • But that ignores the fact that the Ampetus are Life batts – much longer cycle life than LiMn which is probably why they can offer a better warranty. LifePO4s also offer much higher C ratings (Continous and peak)

  14. Julian Smith says:

    The Ampetus seems like a valid alternative to the more expensive Tesla batteries, especially if you want to use the pods. My concern is old Beta v VHS scenario, and in fact Tesla win out just because it has a bigger marketing footprint

    • The Beta / VHS argument is not valid. They weren’t directly exchangeable. Apart from the charging program, batteries could be interchangeable. Some retrofitting needed. You could even operate a Tesla and Ampetus together in the same system. Plus lets not forget that both beta and vhs were made obsolete by DVD and then BD and now they are going the way of the dinosaurs thanks to VOD services like netflix… in the meantime your battery slowly degrades but continues to work.

  15. Mark Reynolds says:

    What irritates me about this article, is the prices are quoted ‘not including GST’.
    So you need to add 10%
    I quote Bernie Gill of Ampetus “Price for batteries is $2300 plus GST , cabinet is $890 + which will take up to 5 batteries .”
    Mark

    • It doesn’t irritate me but I reckon when Ronald did his math and came up with 18.7c per warranted kWh he fogot to include GST, inverter, cabinet and install costs. It wasn’t on purpose – he doesn’t generally take sides. It was just easier to compare.

  16. dave cadwell says:

    Ok, so when was the last time you took a look at Enphase one battery wt 55lbs 1.2 kWh discharge time 4 hrs 270 Va

  17. For what its worth…An honest consumers perspective.
    The Ampetus, Powerwall 2, LG etc all have there application and seems like they are good product. Based on the technical specs, it seems to have stepped up to be a better and more appropriate product. HOWEVER…..an observation of on the killer of the installation cost.
    The product price is the least of your concern…once you are locked in to purchase the item online with a large delay to receive it, there is a $3500 to $4000 to install it. That is OFFENSIVE and to be upfront price gouging Australian consumers. Tesla quote a price range on their web site…NOT one of their installers is even close to this. I have tried to find a realistic priced installer and have tried multiple people. No success!

    I would like to put it into perspective. The installers all tell me its very technical and their is significant work to connect to the AC switchboard….In short “rubbish”. Its a length of copper, conduit and and AC circuit breaker. (well under $100 in hardware) Lets round up to $200 to be conservative. I also get installers stating their is significant time to program and set up the software???????? That’s not what Tesla experts tell me, someone that is knowledgeable will find it very logical and straightforward? Lets assume that you have a Muppet solar installer and apply some simple mathematics….. $4000 for an A grade electrician at $100 per hour is 40hours work……When you ask the installers that question the topic gets shifted quickly and you will get an new explanation. The short version is they blame Tesla for lack of technical support and problems to download the software etc etc.

    – In reality….. there is under $200 in cabling product.
    – Installation of the Powerwall 2 and the 2nd controller device, lets be generous and say 1hr to hang on the wall. another 1 hour to cable into the switchboard; lets even allow 6hours to program the device. For the sake of the story lets assume it takes 8 hours (a day) for an installer to be at your home….SO $4000 / 8 hrs = $500 per hour. Hmmmmm That seems expensive?

    – The reality is the average installer will do 2 installs day for a competent installer. SO $4000 / 4 hours = $1000 per hour. And by the way the programmer does not have to be an A grade electrician. In my humble opinion NO tradesman is worth $1000-$500 per hour.

    I would encourage you to challenge your installer to justify his installation cost.

    I would encourage you to contact Tesla and explain that the install cost is not “value for money’. Polite way of saying being ripped off. Possibly a discussion for the ombudsman?

    Tesla (Elon Musk) is trying hard in my opinion break new ground, he is entitled to make a profit for the billions he has invested and I am happy to pay him a profit for his risk and capital investment he has done for us. What I detest is fat, lazy scammer solar installers riding on the coat tails of ground breakers like Musk. I still think the Powerwall 2 is expensive and based on a return on investment, it does not pay for its self. Mass replication, innovation and competition will help reduce prices consumers. But installers are milking consumers and we need to apply pressure on installers and Tesla

    In summary:
    I can by the Powerwall2 with controller off the Tesla AU website for $8750. The blackout software is now supplied free of charge from Tesla. Installers wont installer a Powerwall 2 for the price Tesla suggests on its website. Allow a couple of hundred for cabling supplies. There are no other costs! Tesla is very transparent on the costs. So when any installer offers you a great deal at $12000 to $13000 approx, ask them how long it will take to install and why their days time is $3000-$4000? Remember a good traddie is worth having, however they are not worth $4000 for half a days work! The solar installer industry is scamming consumers and tarnishing the name of Teslas product. If you do the honest numbers on payback on $8750 over 10 or 20 years it is barely worth it. Pay back on $13000 is a down right rip off!

    If the install cost for the electrician was under a $1000 I would probably accept that, but think with competition it will get cheaper.

    As a consumer I am doing my bit and writing on forums and shinning the light on the exorbitant install cost when I see an appropriate forum. The solar industry Scammers” are killing the idea of cost effective solar and environmental reduction for the future and reduced load on the Australian electrical grid. Please form your own opinion based on my observations and feel free to tell others and write to Tesla.

    • John,
      Is the Powerwall 2 now available? Have you seen one?

      I thought that only Tesla’s re-sellers could sell and install the battery.
      The installers could be responsible for the increased costs, or some of it goes to Tesla. Like the “approved” SolarEdge inverters, where there is no other choice.
      I would expect Tesla to benefit from that arrangement.
      That is, can you buy the battery from Tesla at their advertised price?

      Thanks

  18. justin steinmann says:

    Just thought you would like to know for the sake of accuracy that the Super Lithium price is a lot more than 2300, i just purchased one and had to pay 2900 after GST and freight.

  19. Mark Reynolds says:

    Yes. I’ve raised the question of why the prices quoted both here and on the Ampetus web site are both quoted without GST. Personally, I find this practice very deceptive. Legally, I think there are issues also. It’s one of the tricks suppliers use to make better profits – quote the ex GST price, which the purchaser assumes is inc GST – then bump the total price up another 10%.

    I didn’t go ahead because of this reason.

  20. Do i need the cabinate..

  21. Ros Lewis says:

    I have a new house in rural location and wondering if it is best to buy a generator and battery or have the electricity put on. To have power installed it will cost $20,000. What are your thoughts out there? and is it possible to have generator and battery, I can’t afford the solar as well. Thanks in advance for your input. Ros

    • Ronald Brakels says:

      Hello Ross

      You are probably better off getting connected to the grid. This is because spending $20,000 on an off-grid system won’t give close to the convenience of being on-grid and also because being on grid will allow you to get an on-grid solar system and export your surplus solar electricity for a feed-in tariff.

      If you do decide to go off-grid it is far cheaper to get solar, batteries, and a generator than it is to just use a generator and a battery. This is because generator fuel is expensive, especially if it has to be delivered to your property by truck.

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