GCL’s E-KwBe Battery, Or Something Similar, Will Change The World

gcl e-kwbe battery

The GCL E-Kwbe battery may be unpronounceable – but it may also save the world. Kind of.

GCL, a large Chinese company, has unveiled a new lithium-ion energy storage system at a price point that some consider to be shocking. Called the EKwBe, it has a seven year warranty, a ten year expected lifespan, and comes in two varieties. A 2.5 kilowatt-hour system that wholesales excluding GST for $1,499 and a larger 5.6 kilowatt-hour system that wholesales for $2,999.  This is the lowest price that has been offered for any comparable energy storage system and I believe that it, or something similar, has the potential to change the world.

Update: 1st December 20016.  The GCL EKWBE battery currently appears to be retailing for around $3,600 inc GST.  This doesn’t give it a cost per warranted kilowatt-hour as low as the announced Tesla Powerwall 2, but it will be interesting to see if GCL will cut its price further in response once the Powerwall 2 is actually available for installation.

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Why Chinese Made Energy Storage Will Dominate The Market

For those of you who are currently saying I am crazy, and possibly swearing at me, for stating that a new energy storage system no one has even installed yet and which might go nowhere, could change the world, I need you to just shush for a moment while I serve up a big steaming pile of nuance.

I wrote the E-KwBe has the potential to change the world, or something similar. And by something similar I mean low cost Chinese energy storage. Because most of the energy storage that is going to be installed across the world, and particularly in Australia, over the next 7 or so years is going to come from China.

This fact has nothing to do with who has the best technology, or the best marketing, or even what’s right and what’s wrong. It is just reality. It’s because China is big. Let me emphasize that – China is really big. If you thought Woolloomooloo had a lot of people in it, that’s just peanuts compared to China. The nation produces more engineering graduates each year than the US, Japan, and South Korea combined, and they know what they want.  They are expanding the production capacity required for a renewable future like greased lightning – China’s production, it’s multiplying, and they’re improving quality control, and the energy storage they’re supplying, it’s electrifying.

China has developed a massive amount of battery storage production capacity and is rapidly building more. They have well over 100,000 electric buses in service. They have and build more electric cars than any other nation. And they have installed large quantities of stationary energy storage in factories and other facilities across the Middle Kingdom. China leads the world in sheer quantity of battery production and they are likely to maintain their lead as their government provides industry with low cost loans funded by siphoning away worker’s savings through inflation that is higher than bank interest rates.

And don’t feel too smug about that.  It’s not as if Australian taxpayers have never subsidized industry through a variety of methods of varying dodginess.

China leads the world in battery production and they are extremely likely to maintain that lead. I don’t know what will happen in the long term, maybe in 20 years most energy storage will be made in India and Nigeria. But over the medium term, for at least the next 7 years, China will produce most of the world’s battery storage. If the quality of what they produce isn’t high enough, they will raise it. If their technology isn’t good enough, they will improve it. If their marketing doesn’t dazzle the punters, they will win on price.

China will produce the majority of the world’s energy storage and a lot of the time people won’t even realize the batteries in their energy storage systems were made there. It will also turn out to be true that in the future Chinese made batteries will be the ones you will hear the most complaints about and will have the most faults and cause the most fires, but this will simply be because more batteries will come from China than anywhere else. Or at least I hope that will be the reason.  China has little to gain and plenty to lose from selling shoddy goods and they have come a long way, with the best of what they produce on par with high quality production from other nations.

Of course, it is still possible to find Chinese products that are complete rubbish.

Who The Hell Is GCL?

I’ve explained how and why China is going to produce most of our energy storage, but what about this company called GCL? Do they have the capacity to be a major player in the home energy storage market on their own? Well, apparently the company has around $20 billion in assets, 20,000 workers, they produce around 68,000 tonnes of polysilicon used in solar cells and electronics annually, and currently they have the manufacturing capacity to produce 6 gigawatts of solar PV a year which is more PV than the entire continent of Australia has. Also, they’ve been around for 26 years, which isn’t bad seeing as China only decided to give this whole capitalism thing a whirl less than 40 years ago.

It’s all here in this pamphlet they gave me, and if you can’t trust a pamphlet put out by a Chinese company, what can you trust? But for those of a suspicious nature, a quick search online shows that GCL-Poly Energy Holdings Ltd. has a market capitalization of around $3.7 billion. That’s not the same thing as assets, but it does show they are a large company. And they appear to have moved into batteries in a big way. They have had experience with large scale battery installations for industrial use and small scale off-grid systems for remote communities with the solarcube.

Is The E-KwBe A Tesla Powerwall Killer?

My friend Feng-li, or Pineapple as we call her, says the E-KwBe is a Tesla Powerwall killer.

Yes, Feng-li means pineapple in Chinese. No, I don’t know why her parents called her Pineapple. My only guess is when they named her they were both very hungry.

However, I disagree with Pineapple, as the Tesla Powerwall basically topped itself by failing to live up to expectations. And you can’t kill something that’s already dead. Fans of zombie movies, feel free to disagree with me in the comments.

And before I go too far, I will point out that the Tesla Powerwall itself isn’t dead, just the dream that it would lead us into our home and business energy storage future. The system is still around and may have a niche roll to play among those who like the word Tesla, but it is now just one system among many and, apart from the recognizable name, it does not stand out from the pack. It would be great if Tesla turned that around, and as soon as I see they have done that, I will let you know. Until then, if you want to hear me say hopeful, optimistic things about the Tesla Powerwall, I suggest you travel back in time.

If The Tesla Powerwall Isn’t Dead, Why Is The E-KwBe Wearing Its Skin?

What GCL has borrowed from the Powerwall is the appearance of the E-KwBe, as both the 2.5 and 5.6 kilowatt-hour ones basically look like smaller versions of it. And like the Powerwall, they come in a variety of not at all exciting colours.

But borrowing the Powerwall’s shape is not a huge steal from Tesla, as form does follow function. If one is making an energy storage system designed to hang on a wall, one is unlikely to shape it like a muscle ball. And we will have to wait to see if they have also borrowed the idea from Tesla of keeping bad news about its warranty a secret until it actually starts being installed in Australia.

The front of the E-KwBe is plastic, while the back is cast aluminium that is ribbed, not for pleasure, but for heat dissipation. (Although I am sure we could find some people who would find it pleasurable.)  The system has no active cooling. This is one of the reasons why it is cheaper than the competition and one reason why its warranty is 7 years, rather than the more common 10 years.  It also means the unit will be completely silent – with only a remote chance of a crackling sound if things go seriously wrong.

I actually find the shorter 7 year warranty reassuring. Clearly it is easier to get an energy storage system to work reliably for 7 years than 10 years and we won’t have to wait quite as long to be confident it does work as intended.

No, You Probably Can’t Get A 2.5 Kilowatt-hour E-KwBe Installed for $2,500

Both versions of the E-KwBe come with great wholesale prices. But when estimating the total cost it is not enough to simply tack $1,000 onto that to cover installation and GST. For one thing, you will need a compatible hybrid inverter and an extremely limited number of existing rooftop solar installations have one of them. Or you will need to buy a compatible battery inverter to wire in to your solar inverter, and they start at about $2,000.  And then there is the fact that these E-KwBe systems are new and unproven and the installers who first offer them are going to be taking on a fair bit of risk and the smart ones are going to want to be compensated for that.

If the systems have a high failure rate it is going to hurt the installer’s reputation and they will have to do a lot of extra work to either replace them or get them working again. And if GCL turns out to be a bitch to work with, not that I’m saying they will be, I’m sure that in reality they’re complete pussy cats, but just hypothetically speaking, if they were really bitchy, installers could waste literally scores of hours trying to get them to live up to their warranty obligations.

In the future, if the E-KwBe proves itself to be reliable, GCL demonstrates that it is easy to work with, and installers become more experienced and faster at connecting the system, then we can expect installation costs to come down. Until then you can shop around to see who will give you the best price, but I strongly recommend going with someone you are confident will have your back if something goes wrong.

Does It Make Economic Sense To Install An E-KwBe?

It very unlikely to make economic sense to install an E-KwBe at the moment for on-grid energy storage. And if that doesn’t pay for itself then using it to take an on-grid home off-grid is not likely to pay either. It could be worthwhile for situations where being off-grid is the only option, but even then people would have to be okay with using a system without a proven track record. But while it doesn’t really pay for itself yet, provided it works as promised, it is a big step forwards.

The great news about both the 2.5 and 5.6 kilowatt-hour versions is the nominal storage is their actual usable capacity, so there is none of this nonsense where a system that was marketed as being 7 kilowatt-hours somehow manages to shrink down to 5.4 kilowatt-hours in real life, like when you kill a spider the size of your hand and it shrivels down to the size of a sultana so you can’t boast about it to your mates.  I certainly think that when companies are selling energy storage systems rather than just batteries, the nominal size should be equal to its usable capacity in order to make things easier for consumers.

While the E-KwBe doesn’t cheat you out of usable storage from the get go, it will gradually degrade over time and lose capacity.  I don’t currently have the warranty information for it so I can’t know how much it is likely to degrade, but I would expect it to be operating at around 80% of capacity after 10 years and 86% after seven years.

Allowing for the degradation, over seven years a 5.6 kilowatt-hour E-KwBe should provide an average of around 93% of its full capacity as usable stored energy, which would come to 5.2 kilowatt-hours. If it provides this once a day for its entire warranty period of seven years and then dies, then the wholesale cost of $2,999 divided by the total number of stored kilowatt-hours provided will come to 22.5 cents a kilowatt-hour. If it lasts for its expected 10 year lifespan it would come to 16.3 cents per kilowatt-hour.

Now 16.3 cents a kilowatt-hour might seem great because there are people in NSW on time of use tariffs who are paying 40 cents or more for electricity in the evening and only receiving 6 cents for electricity sent into the grid  from their rooftop solar system. If they can store electricity for less than 34 cents a kilowatt-hour then they could save money. But it is not that simple.

First of all, the E-kwBe would have to be completely charged with solar electricity everyday, no matter what the weather was like or how high daytime electricity demand was, and all the usable stored energy would have to be used each evening. Most households would be unlikely to use it at such a high capacity. Additionally, it will need a compatible hybrid inverter in order to operate and while the premium required for one has been rapidly falling, it will still cost more than an ordinary solar inverter.  The cost of capital also has to be accounted for, which is how much it costs to borrow money or how much return the money spent on a system could have earned if it had been invested elsewhere.  And finally the cost of installation has to be accounted for. To install an E-KwBe with a wholesale price of $2,999 into a system which already has a compatible hybrid inverter may cost around $6,000. If you need a battery inverter, then add a couple of thousand to that price. If that seems too much to you, then don’t be an early adopter and see if the price comes down.

For a household that uses their energy storage at a capacity factor of 80%, pays 40 cents for electricity in the evening after the usual discounts are applied, has a 5% cost of capital, receives a 6 cent feed-in tariff for electricity they send into the grid, and didn’t have to pay anything extra to get a compatible hybrid inverter, then a 5.6 kilowatt-hour E-KwBe that works flawlessly for 10 years would have to be installed for under $3,850 just to break even. And that fully installed price is not a realistic possibility at the moment. But provided the cost of the E-KwBe and the cost of installation fall, it is a possibility in the future.

Canberra And Adelaide CBD Battery Subsidies

Both Canberra and Adelaide City Council offer subsidies for energy storage systems.  Adelaide’s subsidy is available now, while Canberra’s is currently in a trial period and will be open for new applicants next year.

Even with a subsidy, battery systems have a very hard time paying for themselves in Canberra, as it has the lowest electricity prices in Australia, which is not good for the economics of home energy storage.  People on a time of use tariff there will typically pay about 21 cents a kilowatt-hour for electricity in the evening.  This means that if the subsidy paid for half the installed cost of a 5.6 kilowatt-hour E-KwBe that operated flawlessly for 10 years, was used at 80% of capacity, with a cost of capital of 5%, a solar feed-in tariff of 6 cents, and no need to pay extra for a compatible hybrid inverter, then the total cost of installation before subsidy would have to be under $3,400 for a household to save money.  And that is definitely not likely to happen any time soon.

The Adelaide City Council subsidy is only available in the Central Business District and Northern Adelaide, which is the small area above it.  Energy storage connected to rooftop solar there can receive a subsidy of half the installed cost, to a maximum of $5,000.

Electricity prices are much higher in Adelaide than Canberra and solar feed-in tariffs tend to be higher also.  A household on a fixed tariff will pay around 28 cents a kilowatt-hour and currently there are no time of use tariffs that are more suitable available in the area.  So given a 50% subsidy and the same conditions as in the Canberra example, except for an 8 cent solar feed-in tariff, the total cost of installation before subsidy would have to be under $4,540 for a household to save money.

I’m Tellin’ Y’all It’s Arbitrage

Currently I have received no indication that the E-KwBe will come with software from Reposit that will enable it to engage in electricity arbitrage.  That is, sell and potentially buy electricity at wholesale market prices, within limits, rather than retail prices.  And I am assuming it doesn’t to save on cost.  But there is no reason why it could not be used for this purpose, although it would make it much easier and cheaper if it was a standard feature.  Just how much money a household could make from electricity arbitrage is not clear at the moment.  Personally, I don’t think it would be a very large amount, and it will decline over time as more people install energy storage, but it could help offset some of its cost and make energy storage more affordable.

The E-KwBe For Non-Voluntary Off-Grid Use

Whether or not the E-KwBe is worthwhile for people who have no choice other than to be off-grid will depend upon their situation and what their tolerance for risk is with regard to relying on a system that is new and untried. For those who’d like to give it a go, the good news is that up to eight E-KwBes can function together as a unit which should provide a maximum of around 44.8 kilowatt-hours of storage.

The Non-Economic Case For Installing An E-KwBe

I’ve covered why installing an E-KwBe is very unlikely to save you money at the moment, but if you want to install one for non-economic reasons, then please feel free to go for it. You will give the rest of us valuable information on how they function and bring the day closer when we more tight fisted people loosen our vice like grip on our dollars and shell out for a system.

Our Energy Storage Future Is Not Here Yet, But It Is A Lot Closer Than It Was

While GCL’s E-KwBe is very unlikely to pay for itself yet in Australia even under the most favorable of circumstances, it is the lowest cost energy storage system I know of. Provided it works as promised, it definitely brings the day that on-grid energy storage is economically worthwhile closer. I don’t find it at all difficult to believe that within a few years, with continued declines in price helped along by some adventurous early adopters with more money than sense, on-grid energy storage could fall in cost to a level where it clearly pays for itself for a significant portion of Australian households.

About Ronald Brakels

Joining SolarQuotes in 2015, Ronald has a knack for reading those tediously long documents put out by solar manufacturers and translating their contents into something consumers might find interesting. Master of heavily researched deep-dive blog posts, his relentless consumer advocacy has ruffled more than a few manufacturer's feathers over the years. Read Ronald's full bio.


  1. “…as soon as I see they have done that, I will let you know…”

    Great perceptions. Think you’re right. China will bring this in. Maybe Musk will rise to the challenge… .

    • Ronald Brakels says

      Thank you, Lessor. As for what Tesla will do with energy storage, well, we can hope they will improve what they have on offer. But I imagine energy storage is really just a side business for them which lets them switch excess cell production capacity to energy storage if it exceeds what is needed for electric car production. So we might see a price drop if they can spare the cells, and a price freeze when they start full production of their model 3.

  2. Erik Christiansen says

    The petrol generator was a step forward out on the farm, after decades of gas lamps, and pump-up mantle lamps fuelled by Shellite before that. I really can’t see the case for many tens of kWh of batteries (umpty thousands of dollars), when:
    a) All heavy consumption can occur during PV generating hours.
    b) A eutectic fridge can even eliminate that steady overnight drain.
    c) There’s no need for aircon or washing machine on grey days, and the wood heater uses solar energy stored in exceedingly low-cost lumps.
    d) If there’s no hot water, then take a cold shower in summer, or heat a kettle on the wood stove in winter. (In summer there’s also a couple of dams. They store a bit of heat – enough for a quick dip.)
    e) If an oversized array and undersized batteries are defeated by lengthy lousy weather, then it’s cheaper to arc up the generator than pay for bigger batteries – so long as it’s infrequent. (What’s really needed there is a little 3 kW steam engine. A monotube boiler is safety itself. And then there’s no shortage of hot water, either.)

    • Peter Wise says

      Hey Eric – That’s how we lived 40 years ago when I couldn’t afford the grid connection. Except swapped the solar panels for LPG fridges. Still burning lumps of energy to keep warm over winter. My wife took the ironing to work and did it when she finished for the day.

  3. Hmmmm………..that’s about $300.00 a year over 10 years in cost…….my cost at the moment is around $360.00 a quarter with solar so this is all night use . I am still saving around $600.00 to $900 a year with a 6.3KW system on a 5.3KW converter so if they keep it at around $3500 installed it might be viable but I don’t know that the 3KW is going to be enough for me………….and yes Tesla never had a chance at their prices,surely they did the figures and it didn’t add up ?

    • Finn Peacock says

      Hi Eric,

      Remember – that is the wholesale cost (not including GST). The installer needs to add a good margin to cover his liability and overheads etc. considering he will be supporting it for at least 7 years!


  4. “I don’t find it at all difficult to believe that within a few years, with continued declines in price helped along by some adventurous early adopters with more money than sense, on-grid energy storage could fall in cost to a level where it clearly pays for itself for a significant portion of Australian households.”

    Or perhaps they regard it as an investment in a better future? I paid $3500 for an early (1983) gas assisted solar HWS (over the normal $2000 for an electric booster) on that basis. The almighty dollar should not drive every decision.

  5. Alexander says

    I’m not here to add my two cents, but I must commend the language used. It can be read, and interpreted, by installers and layman’s alike.
    Let’s hope they are safe……. I’m interested to know how many you would watch others sell before diving head first into them though?

    • Ronald Brakels says

      Thank you, Alexander.

      Personally, I would wait until the fully installed cost of any battery system was low enough for it to clearly save me money. And by the time that happens I’m sure we’ll have plenty of evidence the E-KwBe is safe. Or, in the unfortunate case they turn out not to be safe, then they won’t be on the market anymore.

      But my parents live in an area where subsidies for home energy storage are being considered because the grid has trouble meeting demand in the evening and they don’t want to go through the expense of building a new transmission line. So if the E-KwBe turned out to be a clear money saver for them, I’d be fine with them getting one. But I’d have them take the same precautions I would when installing any lithium-ion battery system. For one thing, I’d buy them an electrical fire extinguisher.

  6. Given that most human decisions are driven by emotion rather than logic I believe this GCL will sell very well at the current price. Never underestimate the allure of a bright shiny new thing you can feel good about, especially one with cool lights on it hanging between the fridge and the pinball in the man cave. I can just imagine the conversation “Hey come out to the garage and check out me new GCL energy storage system mate. It’s an absolute pearler and it saves me heaps. Stores all me solar to use later just like the sun’s shining at night.” And who am I to fault that thinking? They’ll sell all they can get, provided it doesn’t self immolate and take the cave and all the toys with it.

    If only they had a better name for it. Something like PowerHouse or SunBank or e-Vault, then the emotions would really run high.

  7. Is this any closer?

  8. Hello All,

    I decided to get a package sungrow hybrid Inverters, GCL panels and GCL 5.6 battery.

    Nutshell – i am getting it all removed. The panel i feel work like a dream and i can see my bills cut in half because of solar panels. i would like to keep the panels but the installer said … it was a package so it all has to removed.

    So stuffed it get rid of it and find a new installer to installer some panels for me. 🙁

    But the battery or sungrow Inverters have issues.

    I dont think it the fault of the installer who is trying to get this working but i feel i am the first person to install this unit. (Can someone confirm it working a sungrow hybrid Inverters and GCL battery working ?

    Here is my problems

    1) The battery does not discharge on low watts.
    Proof – My power bills say from 12-8AM i am being charged but my battery is not discharging. i am pulling from the grid 200w per hour average.

    2) The Battery is not discharging to the house. I crank up the load .. oven, heater, dish washer …. battery said discharged in 2 hour … see my bill the next days says i comsumed 2.2 kwh during that time.

    The sungrow person has been to my house to inspect the wiring and still not working. The install has been out here trying to fix it.i need the wolf !

    Everyone is stumped ….. Has anyone got a GCL battery and sungrow hybrid Inverters working …. please help ..

  9. found out some more information.

    I ran sungrow australia – to their credit they sound very very clued up in this area, (well at least to a lame man like me).

    They have this config working in australia(But i did not ask have they tested it).

    so my unit is charging and discharging. Ticks.

    i just not discharging on low watts and not charging to my house …

    logic – would point to wiring or a “funny meter” – put two people have confirm this is not the problem(installer and sunglow rep).

    i have also rang GCL HQ in hong kong. Good thing i fly cathy pacfic alot and stop over there once a month.

    they have asked me to send them an email about the problem …. i am hoping this will not be filed in the folder shaped like a rubbish bin.

    i do not blame he installer, sungrow rep … or oneshop ….just want to know why my unit it not working or maybe all unit are not discharging to the house but people do not know ….

  10. If you were in WA, I’d suggest that you had the wrong Synergy plan. A friend who had solar panels put up found her bills went UP… not down.

    That’s because she also switched to Smart Power.

    When she realised… and switched back to A1… her bills dropped dramatically!

    Probably not the cause in your case, but worth noting, nonetheless.

    • Hey Lessor

      Great point … made me check my power bill. I have been on the flat rate all this time.

      Background my house pulls an average of 13 kw per day.

      After kids and I go to bed after 9.00PM … power bill is around 200 watt per hour. We can see this from our powershop app.

      wake up at 7.00 … the morning big spike … then solar farming all day.
      (How boring it must be to be a solar panel).

      i have the read out and daily bill before we install the solar (the big hump during the day when AC is on and i work from home),

      Now that hump is almost nil … (depending on weather). But at night time the battery say it discharging when we are using the most power from 5.00pm to 9.00pm about 500 watts our bill is still the same before and after the battery was installed … and it stop discharging when the draw reaches bellow 200 watts.

      installer job is thr wiring and we had this check from sungrow -tick
      i am hoping sungrow and oneshop can help me ….

      Just the idea of me discharging back to the grid is enough to make me boil … power company is getting free power from me !!! :). should send them a notice of payment …!


  11. Hello All.

    Problem has been solved.

    Spoke to sungrow they have confirm the SH5K hybrid does not draw from the battery if it 150 watt and below.

    Hopefully they will update the manual to reflect this

    oneshop and sungrow and melbourne installer renew-era have done a great job for me.

    tonight or tomorrow – i will draw 600 watt for 2 hours and this should show an almost zero bill.

    oneshop, sungrow and my installer i believe provide great support warranty claim will be the real test ::P

  12. I installed a 5.6kWh GCL and Goodwe GW5048D-ES. I can only get 3.5kWh out of it. One Stop Warehouse tells me this is normal and I shouldn’t expect more.

    There are a couple of reasons why it is so low. First, the Goodwe inverter can only charge to 60V when the battery needs 63V for 100% charge, so the maximum capacity it can reach is 95%.
    Second, the GCL battery’s BMS only allows the battery to be discharged to 80% of its nominal 5.6kWh.
    Third, the inverter efficiency when powered from the battery appears to be only 83% with a 540W constant load.

    I have an issue with this as the battery is advertised as having an internal capacity of 6.2kWh with a Depth of Discharge of 90%, implying 5.6kWh is accessible by the end user. First the useable capacity is reduced to 4.48kWh because of an undocumented limit on the DoD to 80%. When using an approved inverter 5% is lost because of charging voltage limits which leaves you with 4.2kWh. Then there is the apparent inefficiency of the inverter which only leaves 3.5kWh.

    I would recommend that people take note of the manufacturer imposed limits on this battery and compare with other products accordingly

  13. I feel for you David.

    I bought a GCL battery with a Sungrow inverter.

    Onestop guy hang up on me and told me not to waste his time from the Queensland office after I bought the kit.

    Lucky my installer and Sungrow helped me out.

    I would not recommend GCL or buying anything from OneStop.

    No aftersale support can prove and still have the voice recording.

    Wait another of couple of years and let the battery technology mature .. I had headache upon headache with onestop. Worst part: even though they sell the GCL battery as a system with the invereter. They will one owner a warranty claim if u ship it back to the lab and test the battery under factory conditions at your cost .

    Wait unless you want problems is my advice …for product to mature and after sales support to improve.


  14. sebastian says

    Looks like Tesla powerwall 2 is a killer of this GCL.
    My mate has one installed about 7 months ago and he say its working perfectly.
    He say in the summer he can basically cut the main power off because PW2 is enough for running ac fridge etc during the night ( he has very good insulation at his house )

    • Maz Mirzakhani says

      Just a thought ;Tesla is Killer just because is much bigger system 13.5 KWH vs 5.6 KWH it doesn’t mean that its more efficient though.. I think if you going with Battery storage system better off going with at least 10 KWH size as the cost of installation is big portion of it and is the same for any size.

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