6th Canberra Battery Test Centre Report — 61% Of Tested Batteries Faulty

Battery Test Centre June 2019 update

The Canberra Battery Test Centre has released their latest six monthly report.  It took them 9 months to get it out, but I’m glad they took their time, as it’s a beauty. It gives information on the performance of every solar battery they’ve been able to successfully test and can be downloaded here.

I originally wrote about the Battery Test Centre a year ago and covered their September report here.  Today I’ll go over the highlights of the latest report.  Some good news is:

  • The Sony Fotelion lithium battery retained 87% of its original usable capacity after testing that approximates 10 years of household use.  This demonstrates it’s possible to make lithium batteries that only suffer moderate degradation.
  • Solar battery efficiency does not appear to decline with use.

Unfortunately, there’s also plenty of bad news:

  • Out of the 18 batteries tested only 7 did not develop a fault or already had one when delivered.
  • Rather than improving with time, newer solar batteries used in Phase 2 testing were faultier than older Phase 1 models.
  • Total round trip efficiency of lithium batteries appears to only average around 84%.
  • The solar battery systems tested have shown little overall decline in price for two years.

Battery Trouble

When I first wrote about the Battery Test Centre I reported things did not look good for anyone wanting to own a problem-free residential battery.  The situation has — predictably — failed to improve with time.  The chart below was taken from the latest report and the red parts of the chart indicate battery trouble:

Solar battery trouble chart

Don’t worry if the chart is difficult to read because I’ll save you the trouble of going through it by pulling out the most shocking1 details.

Majority Of Batteries Faulty

Of the 18 batteries tested only 7 didn’t arrive with or develop a fault.  Using advanced finger mathematics I determined that’s under 40%.  Three of the so far faultless solar batteries haven’t finished testing, so the percentage could worsen.

It would be nice if I could report the 10 newer batteries from Phase 2 testing were less faulty than the older, original, 8 models from Phase 1 — but the opposite is true.  While half the older phase 1 batteries were fault free, only 30% of the newer phase 2 units have operated okay so far.

Faulty solar battery percentages

Not all faults were equal.  Some problems were detected rapidly and rectified under warranty with little interruption in operation.  For others the situation was more serious.  In the case of the Aquion Salt Water Battery, the Battery Test Centre was unable to install it and couldn’t get any assistance because the manufacturer went bankrupt.  If a home owner had bought that Aquion they’d be completely out of pocket because the street value of salty water isn’t very high.

The importer of the lithium Ampetus battery also went bankrupt and wasn’t around to honor their warranty when it decided to turn into an expensive brick.  Two out of 18 means 11% of tested solar batteries failed because warranty support was not available.

While a household would have been out of luck with the Aquion or Ampetus battery, I think the award for bad luck combined with dogged perseverance would have to go to Redflow.  So far they have replaced their ZCell battery four times.  Once because it had contaminated electrolyte and three times because it developed electrolyte leaks.  Redflow has changed the manufacturer they use and I can’t say I blame them.

Capacity Decline — Phase 1 Batteries

With very few exceptions, batteries decline in capacity with use.  Accurate information on the usable capacity over time could only be obtained for 4 of the 8 Phase 1 batteries.  One of them was lead-acid.  The graph below shows the deterioration in capacities of the 3 lithium solar batteries:

Solar battery capacity decline - phase 1 models

On the graph above 2,000 Cycle Counts should roughly correspond to 10 years typical household use.2  The Sony Fortelion had around 88% of its original capacity at the end of testing and is predicted to still have 87% at 2,000 Cycle Counts.  This is an excellent result and, despite being one of the older Phase 1 batteries, was the best result of all those that could be measured.  This shows lithium ion batteries can be very durable.  But this excellent performance came at a high cost in the form of a high cost.  The Sony Fortelion was expensive.

The Samsung AIO (All In One) also did well and is predicted to have 84% of its stated original usable capacity at the 2,000 Cycle Count mark.  The original Tesla Powerwall was the worst of the three but, because of hardware limitations, its testing was harsher than the other two and this could have contributed to greater deterioration.

Capacity Decline — Phase 2 Batteries

This graph shows the decline in usable capacity of the 4 out of 10 Phase 2 batteries that were able to be measured:

Capacity decline - phase 2 solar batteries

Testing of the Phase 2 systems isn’t complete, but so far the Pylontech battery has proved to be the most durable and is on track to retain around 84% of its original usable capacity at 2,000 complete cycles.

At the moment the BYD and Alpha ESS batteries are more or less neck and neck.  When I wrote about the Battery Test Centre’s previous report I pointed out the BYD battery was doing well, but unfortunately its deterioration rate has increased.  Alpha ESS has said their solar battery is faulty, so it’s possible if it was working properly its deterioration would be less.3

The GNB Li-ion has clearly suffered the worst performance and appears to be faulty.

Efficiency Doesn’t Decline With Time

The good news is the round trip efficiency of solar batteries — how much energy you can get out compared to how much you put in — doesn’t appear to get worse over time.  The graph below shows the round trip efficiencies for all the Phase 2 units that are in operation:

round trip efficiency results

They range from 87% to 94%, but this is only the DC to DC efficiency.  In practice there will be additional losses4 and I estimate they are likely to be around 6%.  The exact amount will vary between systems.  The graph below shows the round trip efficiency figures with an extra 6% loss included:

Estimated real life round trip efficiency

While a BYD system does well with an estimated 88% round trip efficiency, the average of the 5 is only 84%.  This means a typical solar battery system will consume around 1.2 kilowatt-hours of electricity for every kilowatt-hour of stored energy it provides.

Residential Batteries Have Stopped Getting Cheaper

According to the Battery Test Centre there’s been no significant overall decrease in the cost of lithium batteries for two years.  The graph below shows wholesale electricity prices for the models they tested.  Unfortunately, they don’t tell us the names of the batteries for some reason.  Don’t they know that giving names and prices is not illegal?  We do it on our Solar Battery Comparison Table and I’ve hardly had to kill any battery assassins as a result.  Note the prices on the graph below are without retailer margins or installation costs.  Also, they often don’t include the cost of required supporting hardware:

Wholesale lithium battery prices

Two explanations are given by the Battery Test Centre for the pause in price falls are:

  • Manufacturers weren’t able to meet demand.
  • The cost of raw materials — especially cobalt — increased.

Supply and demand certainly could have been a factor — it often is — but an increase in material costs isn’t a convincing explanation.  It’s the sort of thing CEOs come up with when they can’t live up to their promises or need to justify a price increase.

Lithium Prices

Only a small portion of a lithium battery is lithium.  Because it’s the lightest metal, a little goes a long way.  This means a large increase in the price of lithium only results in a small increase in the cost of a kilowatt-hour of lithium batteries.  Also, the price of lithium has been falling for a year and a half:

Lithium prices

Cobalt Prices

The increase in the price of cobalt was more extreme:

Cobalt prices

But not all lithium batteries use cobalt and the ones that do use very little.  If Tesla’s statements about the quantity of cobalt in their solar batteries can be trusted5, it puts an upper limit of around 200 grams of cobalt per kilowatt-hour.6  This means if cobalt was purchased at its peak price it would only add a maximum of around $12 per kilowatt-hour.  As the estimated wholesale price of a Tesla Powerwall 2 without installation comes to $880 per kilowatt-hour, that’s only around a 1% increase.  And since cobalt prices have collapsed down to around where they were two and a half years ago, even that small amount no longer applies.

Making a good residential solar battery is difficult

Personally, I think the main reason why the solar battery prices monitored by the Test Centre haven’t fallen is because making a good residential battery has turned out to be freaking difficult.  If it wasn’t, their testing wouldn’t have involved so many faulty, buggy, buggered batteries.

Another reason for the hiatus in price declines was probably Tesla’s multiple price increases for the Powerwall 2.  This reduced pressure on other manufacturers to reduce their prices to compete.

Finally, I think the announcement of South Australia’s large solar battery subsidy helped keep prices high.  After all, why bother to lower your price when a state government is effectively going to lower it while hardly costing you a cent.7

Some good news is that, while batteries the Test Centre has investigated haven’t budged much on price, there are new arrivals on the solar battery market that are competitively priced.  Our Battery Comparison Table shows what’s available.  The problem is, since they haven’t trialed by the Battery Test Centre, it’s harder to be sure how well — or poorly — they’ll perform.

The Moral Is Caution

Apart from the performance of the Sony Fortelion battery and the fact round trip efficiency doesn’t deteriorate over time, there’s not a lot of good news in this battery report.  I think the overall message is one of caution.  Just as time doesn’t actually heal all wounds, it doesn’t necessarily improve solar battery systems either.  This was demonstrated by newer Phase 2 batteries being faultier than older Phase 1 batteries.

I think the most important thing to take away from this battery report is the importance of using both an installer and a battery manufacturer you can rely on to fix problems or completely replace faulty solar battery systems as required.  And keep replacing them if they have to, as Redflow did four times with their ZCell.

But many reliable solar installers are now refusing to sell batteries because they have seen how unreliable they can be.  This means more battery systems are likely to be sold by dodgy installers and this means more problems for consumers.  I’m sure some big manufacturers will get it right before too long and start producing highly reliable solar battery systems, but by that point the battery industry’s reputation may have suffered a lot of damage.

Footnotes

  1. Did you see watt I did there?  Batteries — shocking?  I hope you got a charge out of that.  It’s one of my current jokes.
  2. When a solar battery discharges energy equal to its nominal or nameplate capacity that is regarded as one cycle count.  Many households are likely to use less than 0.6 of a Cycle Count per day because the usable amount is less and decreases over time.  Also, the available stored energy won’t always be fully consumed.
  3. Alpha ESS state this is a different battery module from what they currently use.
  4. Additional losses will include changing energy into low voltage DC electricity batteries can accept and also from changing the low voltage DC electricity they provide into the AC electricity homes use.
  5. Let’s just assume they’re telling the truth this time.
  6. Tesla has said they can greatly reduce the amount of cobalt their batteries require, but I’ll use this figure from around when cobalt was at its peak price.
  7. There are compliance costs for batteries to be part of the scheme, so it’s not quite free.
About Ronald Brakels

Many years ago now, Ronald Brakels was born in Toowoomba. He first rose to international prominence when his township took up a collection to send him to Japan, which was the furthest they could manage with the money they raised. He became passionately interested in environmental matters upon his return to Australia when the local Mayor met him at the airport and explained it was far too dangerous for him to return to Toowoomba on account of climate change and mutant attack goats. Ronald then moved to a property in the Adelaide Hills where he now lives with his horse, Tonto 23.

Comments

  1. Michael Oberhardt says

    I’ve never even heard of the Sony ones. None of the resellers I’ve looked at stock them

    • Ronald Brakels says

      Yes, they definitely don’t seem to be a thing in Australia anymore and looking at a European price I see it’s around $1,800 a kilowatt-hour uninstalled.

    • Thomas G says

      The Sony Batteries were used in the Fronius Battery pack which is now not for sale.

  2. Erik Christiansen says

    Ronald,
    I guess that Redflow doesn’t appear in any graph, due to the endlessly repeated electrolyte replacement. That’s very very frustrating, as capacity endurance is its one claim to fame. So now we’re back to relying on warranties and corporate commercial endurance. (Despite field failures) That doesn’t motivate me to pay a price premium for it.

    My roof should go on in early August, so I may have to go with lead acid initially, while the fancy batteries become at least reliable, if not economical.

    • tsk tsk tsk……
      I’d say ‘I told y’so’, but that probably wouldn’t get posted either.

  3. onya Ron! You tellum! Since most of the recycled LA batteries are no longer available (eg ex-Telstra) y’can’t do better than decent-quality SLA-AGM battery-banks from ANY perspective, including price. (ie around $1.30 per ah with a three-year warranty…. or approximately $100 per kWh.
    I’m surprised this hasn’t been brought up long ago. 😉

    • Owen Harrower says

      My thoughts also. We used the “PMG type lead acid batteries” exclusively on airports and they performed well.
      Also I have a sealed lead acid battery in my caravan which serves lighting and water pumps with no major hassle. The last one in the van lasted at least 4 years, and I would expect similar performance with the latest one which has been in for over 2 years to date.
      Yes, the lead acid is a bulkier unit and its discharge voltage needs monitoring closely. If I had room in my villa, I would consider lead acid for my lights, and think about expanding number of collectors, etc, for power needs.

      • Yep. Telstra used to replace the HUGE standby batteries even if they’d never been used. (From memory 800+ ah ~ and big as a suitcase. We used to get ’em from the disposals depot in Port Melbourne for $15 each. A friend of mine finally dumped her bank of 8 a couple of years ago, after nearly 30m years of (fairly frugal) use.
        Accomodation is always a problem tahese days, but if you can find space to park ,say four SLA/AGM batteries you should find they’ll run your lights, computer, tiny-tv (mine runs on 6 watts)/cassette-player, small fridge-freezer (58-litre Engel) phone-charger and a couple of lights.(rig up modern 4/5-Watt torches to run off your battery-bank.)
        I currently have two such batteries running those articles in my van where I’m temporarily living. They’re 145Ah each, and stay pretty-well fully-charged off a 250-Watt panel on the roof along with the short daily car-trips. (For the microwave and kettle I fire up the remote-start generator.)
        Bought them new from a local lad for $185 each, and they come with a 3-year warranty. Six (?) months down the track
        There are all sorts of options available. Y’can get me —> [email protected] 9if you want to discuss them.

  4. Sony no longer makes the batteries in Fortelion. They are MuRata for the last few years I think.

    Same exact high quality brand of Sony before the buyout from MuRata. So that hasn’t changed at all. This cell is near exactly identical to the Samsung 40T and performs near exactly the same in test except it actually runs a few degrees cooler @ 30A CDR. I highly recommend this cell to all who have very high expectations and desires from their device(s). These are 100% Legitimate and Genuine cells.

    I ran the LG resu10 48 volt here and 1 of the banks has failed and blows the 200A fuse. Anyone know about repairing or diagnosing this failure, please help me! Thx. –Dave

    • Dave – if you are blowing a 200A fuse every time sounds like there is a short somewhere. That’s what I’d be looking for.

  5. Yes! it is in the battery where the short is. I need some smart people from LG to help. The US rep said they can’t devote the resources. This is a sad comment to me on LG that they do not want to know the failure cause. I could care less about warranty. Very sad and in line with the Canberra results.

    • I think you mean the fault is in the electronics attached to the battery. Either the charger/BMS or the inverter. If there was an internal short in the battery itself it would catch fire.

      • Dave Angelini says

        I think you do not know the story here. This is why these failure are so bad.
        The battery will sit disconnected from an inverter just fine. On or off. IIt is when you connect it to an inverter it blows the fuse. I have many inverters and am living offgrid.

        If anyone has a connection with LG I would appreciate it .I think they may want to know about this failure. I have another LG that is fine.

      • Lawrence Coomber says

        Lithium Cylindrical Cells have internal short circuit protection integral to the cell architecture to prevent dangerous heat and pressure situations from developing.

        This level of protection is in addition to other protection devices incorporated in battery management systems at both the cell and cell string level.

        Very few battery stack integrators abandon the cell intrinsic internal short circuit protection in favour of their own protection design, except pouch cell batteries with can be safely dealt with differently in design.

        Lawrence Coomber

        • Dave Angelini says

          The LG are stack cells. I have been told they can crack in a failure mode. That is why the fuse blows if any load is connected. It is similar to the old LA failure of breaking down under load.

          I do not know what the problem is with my LG Resu10, and if anyone knows an LG rep I would appreciate a contact. When it failed it had 99% Sol and is currently at 58% Soc.

          The other Resu 10 is fine. I am thinking I will contact the folks at Canberra. This battery model failed the LG and Schneider testing here in the US. LG needs to redesign this for higher charge and discharge current.

          • Hi Dave,
            The RESU10 (low Voltage) battery has not been integrated nor is approved for use with the Schneider XW inverters as it does not follow the RESU batteries BMS Power Map and in start up mode has a high in rush current that can potentially blow fuses in the battery, I guess this is what is happening to your system.
            In Australia the only approved LV Battery Inverter for Off Grid is the Selectronic SP Pro as it manages this with a pre charge and EMS software to treat the battery BMS data as the priority and not the AC load.

          • Dave Angelini says

            I was part of the failed test for Schneider LG and so I know quite a bit about this.
            The battery fails now with zero load. Just switching on a good inverter with zero load blows the breaker. The good LG works fine on the same inverter. The bad battery powers up and runs fine as long as the inverter is not on. I have got some good contact info here and thank-you.

            My opinion is LG needs to build a battery that will work offgrid! They had the closest thing to perfect I have seen yet. A good unit I use for my clients is the Discover AES LFP. It is listed for all Schneider Electric inverters and is plug and play.

  6. Dan Bridges says

    When I read the recent report I came away with the impression that the BMS was sometimes not doing its job properly, allowing over-charging/over-discharging and damaging the cells. So better firmware and means of detecting the State Of Charge will be needed to improve battery reliability.

  7. Ronald,

    How did the fourth phase one battery perform? You know the lead acid one.
    How does it compare generally.

    cheers, great summary.

    • Ronald Brakels says

      The GNB Sonnenschein PBA is still going. But it’s not tested in the same way as the lithium batteries and is cycled less often, so we can’t say it will last as long as the “good” lithium ones do. The same goes for the Ecoult UltraFlex which is the other lead-acid battery tested. It is described as an “advanced” lead-acid battery. It became faulty and had to be replaced and the replacement has developed a fault and it needs to be replaced.

  8. Lawrence Coomber says

    Ron there is a lot more to be learned by a visit to ITP in Canberra. They are very helpful to those who visit, and I commend their openness and transparency in all things.

    ITP Renewables publishes six-monthly reports which describe results to date and lessons learned.

    Here are the 6 reports promulgated so far.

    https://batterytestcentre.com.au/reports/

    Battery Testing Report 1 – September 2016
    Battery Testing Report 2 – March 2017
    Battery Testing Report 3 – November 2017
    Battery Testing Report 4 – March 2018
    Statement on SimpliPhi Results Published in Battery Testing Report 4 – July 2018
    Battery Testing Report 5 – September 2018
    Battery Testing Report 6 – June 2019

    Lawrence Coomber

  9. Makes me glad my house with my 6.6kw system isn’t going to be ready until about March next year.

    Hopefully WA will have subsidies out by then along with some decent batteries.

  10. I read a report by some people who stated that with fairly meticulous care, such as mostly only using the top 10% of the power of lead acid batteries, deep cycling them periodically, equalising their charges, topping up the electrolyte and performing regular maintenance and servicing on them, their battery banks were in near new condition after 30 years. I think I have saved the article and I might be able to refind it on the web.

  11. Lawrence Coomber says

    Shane

    Lead acid battery storage designs can be very efficient, reliable, and enduring when integrated by an experienced Off Grid system designer.

    Search the CEC approved Standalone PV Inverter list and you will find both single phase and 3 phase models there from 5 to 100 kw.

    Importanly several of these models provide for very efficient DC Coupling PV/Batt Off Grid designs at a nominal battery voltage of 480 VDC.

    Higher voltage storage systems are characterised by higher DC Battery voltage / lower DC current / small diameter cabling / lower current protection devices.

    The net result being much more efficient and safer lower current circuitry for the entire DC systems, PV and Battery Systems.

    Getting back to you key point Shane, yes what ages all batteries (including Lead acid) is current magnitude in both modes of operation, charging and discharging.

    The best battery storage designs that will substantially extend the battery bank life, are those that exploit Ohms law to advantage, and design for lowest current designs to suit the systems design capacity and performance objectives.

    Lawrence Coomber

  12. Chris Blair says

    In 1953 we were off grid. In rural Victoria, on a farm in the Howqua district.

    We had a bank of lead acid batteries, and a Lister Diesel engine to charge the batteries. It was high maintenance. As a lad of 7 I was adept at starting the Lister for its daily charge, but not allowed near the acid electrolytes.

    Distilled water was needed to top up the electrolytes, a constant chore for my dad, the only one allowed to do so.

    We had 32 Volt appliances. They were quite sluggish – mum had a Hoover tub, and it was very underpowered compared to its 240 V version.

    Lights were quite dim, but better than the Tilley Lamps and Hurricane Lanterns we had to use before electricity. Refrigeration was by Coolgardie Safes, and a Silent Knight Frig. The Frig and lights all ran on kerosene.

    I woke mum and dad up at 6 am with a cup of tea, made with a methylated spirits camping stove. At the age of 7! Then got the fire in the wood stove going so we could cook breakfast.

    Hot water for baths was heated in large pots on the wood stove, while a chip heater was used for showers.

    Ah, the good old days, with outside one hole long drops, and newspaper squares on a nail.

    Very primitive in retrospect, but great luxury after living with no electricity at all.

    I remember there was a very long waiting list for the system.

    • hi Chris.
      Been there done that – here in Bayswater, about 20 miles from the Melbourne CBD….. except for the electricity, which wasn’t within rifle-shot until we moved to Ringwood a few years later. There were no building materials available for a long time post-war, and I spent those years in a disused dairy-shed, and share many of your experiences.
      Bath-night stands out. Drag the gal-iron bath-tub in front of the large open fire (in the living/only room in the dwelling) and fill it with water simmering in 5-gallon drums.
      Then in went the kids (all three in one go), and after them mum, and finally dad (cos he was the grottiest). Finally the dirtiest clothes (which didn’t need careful handwashing) were done.

      The indoor plumbing consisted of a hose attached to a 250-gallon tank just outside the back door. And, as you say, the dunny was down the back, and non-flushable because the hose didn’t reach that far.

      Even the ‘rich’ locals weren’t much better off, but attitudes were VERY different in every aspect (including ‘neighbourliness’) and it was all made to work. Over time just about everybody could turn their hand to just about everything ~ or went without.

      Little wonder, then the despairing headshaking at today’s ‘attitudes’ and unnecessary wastefulness and complications, which always ends in people selling their soul to the devil for the latest (and often pointless) thingamajig,

      It’s beyond me why people would deliberately spend their lives in thrall to some ‘manufacturer’, ‘provider’ or other (alleged) ‘authority’. Once upon a time getting out from under such positions was the goal to be striven for, and the KISS principle was the guiding principle.
      It was also the time when the ONE SINGLE BATTERY operated the same tractor, truck, houselight/whatever from new until the wheels fell off.

      The pressure to abandon individual endeavour, whether successful or not, is crushing in from all sides, but is still more or less attainable . For now.

  13. Lawrence Coomber says

    Haha. Chris you have some fond memories of the older DC systems looking back.

    I started as a DC Power Sytems Engineer well after you (1968 to be precise) on an Aircraft Carrier HMAS Sydney. 400 VDC.

    Has proved to be a very valuable grounding.

    Lawrence Coomber

  14. betsy hughes says

    Ok, my problem is I want to go completely off grid yet still be able to run the house and etc no matter what the weather, I would like to have a dual system of wind & solar, now I do not want to have to rely on gas, petrol or diesel bottles gennies or otherwise. I know there has to be a way to do this, I don’t mind investing money into it because I do believe in the long run It’s the only way. I live on five ac with not alot of trees in the paddocks, but I want to utilize as much of the property for self sufficiency as possible, that includes water & we’re renovating a 1930’s weatherboard farmhouse, so 👅💦. Not alot of cash so slowly but steadily & deep depth research. Battery storage and consistent power is what we’re talking about here! Ideas???? Help!!!! Say hi to Tonto! Nasty mutant goats, quite right to keep away from them! (look what happened in N.Z with sheep)… (please say you know that reference & I promise to laugh at the jokes) Thanks Betsy😎

    • Ronald Brakels says

      I’ll just give a few general points about going off-grid:

      1. First, if you are going off-grid for environmental reasons – don’t. This is because it is better for the environment to stay on-grid and send your surplus clean solar energy into the grid so it will reduce fossil fuel generation. Unless your solar system is very small the feed-in tariff should more than pay for supply charges. You can still set yourself up so you can be self reliant if and when the grid goes down.

      2. I have not yet seen a small wind turbine that can pay for itself. In my experience it’s always better to put your money into a larger solar/battery system.

      3. If you are going off grid a small generator is a good idea, especially if you have a single point of failure such as one hybrid inverter.

  15. Lawrence Coomber says

    betsy hughes

    Of course you have options to achieve precisely what you want reliably, efficiently and importantly, cost effectively. No if’s – no but’s.

    Contact me anytime and I will be happy to fill you in on the details.

    Lawrence Coomber

  16. Lawrence Coomber says

    Betsy Hughes (Goat proof Off Grid Installations?)

    Your comment about “mutant goats” took me back a bit Betsy to an Off Grid System we installed on a goat farm in 2011/12 in rural Queensland.

    We worked in “cooperation with over 300 goats” roaming free in the install paddock. I made an engineering decision that it would be impossible for a goat to climb up onto slippery solar panels at 25 degrees inclination.

    I was proved wrong!

    http://www.aquilapower.com/offgridimages.html

    Lawrence Coomber

    • Ronald Brakels says

      Goats getting up there does not surprise me at all. Here is a BBC clip of some crazy goats:

      (While the goats look kind of cute, I’d still be wary as one of them could be a Mutant Star Goat in disguise.)

  17. betsy hughes says

    Thanks Lawrence, I will after I have a sit down with the hubby we’ll get in touch. By the way my dad was a Laurence, how’s that for a coincidence? Thanks Betsy

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